What are the chances of….?

[etenguy]

Because people take shortcuts if they are aware of them.

Indeed - or even possibly she followed a man into the square who may have indicated he wanted business.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Indeed - or even possibly she followed a man into the square who may have indicated he wanted business.

What's wrong with her following the man who had obviously indicated that he wanted business and whose chest she was resting her hand on?

[etenguy]

What's wrong with her following the man who had obviously indicated that he wanted business and whose chest she was resting her hand on?

Absolutely nothing - I think that is the most likely scenario - however, we are speculating here about alternatives and testing our confidence in the generally accepted theory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Exactly Eten. We can’t know anything for certain. I agree with most people that Lawende’s man is probably likeliest to have been the killer but my suggestion (and that’s all that it was) can’t be impossible. I don’t even think that it’s particular unlikely. Just less likely than the accepted explanation.

[Losmandris]

But couldn’t she have been crossing Mitre Square on the way to somewhere though?

Related to Al Bundy's Eyes post above could they both (JtR and Eddows) been heading to the soliciting area around St Boltophs? It possible that the murder was heading there from Berner Street, avoiding the the main thoroughfares. Their meeting in Mitre Square just being an unfortunate coincidence.

[etenguy]

Hi E10,

I seem to recall nearby St Botolphs was an area for soliciting.
I don't imagine Mitre Square was used for soliciting, in that it would cease to be a secluded area to conduct business if punters were loitering around. Certainly with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes I can't realistically see anything other than them acquiring a customer and leading them to a secluded spot.

Hi Al Bundy's eyes

I agree with you, and heading to a quiet spot seems a logical action in the circumstances,

The time frame for another person other than Lawendes man is vanishingly small, if the couple sighted was Eddowes and a man, he's odds on the killer. You wouldn't hang him on that alone though.

Yes, indeed - tantalizingly close to being certain but still enough doubt that an alternative is possible.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Related to Al Bundy's Eyes post above could they both (JtR and Eddows) been heading to the soliciting area around St Boltophs? It possible that the murder was heading there from Berner Street, avoiding the the main thoroughfares. Their meeting in Mitre Square just being an unfortunate coincidence.

Could be Tristan. Or could Eddowes have been heading their via Millers Court. My sense of direction isn’t good.

[etenguy]

There is, of course, the possibility that Eddowes went to Mitre Square to meet JtR to blackmail him. It is reported she knew the identity of JtR - though if she ever did profess to know this it was more likely a blag. (Not a serious suggestion - just adding for completeness)

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The time frame for another person other than Lawendes man is vanishingly small, if the couple sighted was Eddowes and a man, he's odds on the killer. You wouldn't hang him on that alone though.

I agree.

What does that say about Swanson's claim that the alleged identification of Kosminski would have resulted in his being hanged in the event that the witness had been prepared to testify again?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I agree.

What does that say about Swanson's claim that the alleged identification of Kosminski would have resulted in his being hanged in the event that the witness had been prepared to testify again?

Hi PI,

I don't read too much into it really, it's either Swanson jotting down an opinion, which is just a brief note and naturally lacks a comprehensive analysis of the case against 'Kosminski', or he's noting what Anderson's theory was regardless of his own belief. Whatever the true extent of the Seaside Home identification, any case against any person is going to hinge on more than a lone sighting. That the witness feared being responsible for Kosminski going to the gallows may be as such, but it seems highly unlikely that that alone would condem anyone, something Swanson undoubtedly was aware of, but what, if there ever had been, the case against Kosminksi was, we'll never know.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi PI,

I don't read too much into it really, it's either Swanson jotting down an opinion, which is just a brief note and naturally lacks a comprehensive analysis of the case against 'Kosminski', or he's noting what Anderson's theory was regardless of his own belief. Whatever the true extent of the Seaside Home identification, any case against any person is going to hinge on more than a lone sighting. That the witness feared being responsible for Kosminski going to the gallows may be as such, but it seems highly unlikely that that alone would condem anyone, something Swanson undoubtedly was aware of, but what, if there ever had been, the case against Kosminksi was, we'll never know.

Sorry for any confusion caused by my mis-typing 'testify again' instead of 'testify against him'.

If Swanson was aware that Kosminski could not have been hanged on the strength of identification evidence alone, then does that not suggest that he was repeating a story that had been told him, rather than something he personally recollected?

As for the witness getting cold feet upon learning that the suspect was Jewish, as I have argued before, it is very difficult to believe that the witness both failed to recognise the suspect as Jewish in the first place and discovered that he was Jewish before the suspect could be arrested and charged.

Swanson's story about Kosminski simply being allowed to return home after being identified as the Whitechapel Murderer does not ring true.

[etenguy]

As for the witness getting cold feet upon learning that the suspect was Jewish, as I have argued before, it is very difficult to believe that the witness both failed to recognise the suspect as Jewish in the first place and discovered that he was Jewish before the suspect could be arrested and charged.

I have wondered whether the witness (presumably Lawende) would have failed to make an identification on the basis of a shared religion in light of these crimes. However, if they did, it might have been hearing the language and accent used by the suspect that convinced him.

Swanson's story about Kosminski simply being allowed to return home after being identified as the Whitechapel Murderer does not ring true.

You would think there would be more to it, but indeed it does happen that lack of evidence means some are sent home even though the police may think there is strong reason to believe they were guilty.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I have wondered whether the witness (presumably Lawende) would have failed to make an identification on the basis of a shared religion in light of these crimes. However, if they did, it might have been hearing the language and accent used by the suspect that convinced him.



You would think there would be more to it, but indeed it does happen that lack of evidence means some are sent home even though the police may think there is strong reason to believe they were guilty.

Thanks for your reply, etenguy.

In view of the fact that Lawende had testified that he did not hear any conversation between the suspect and the woman he identified as Eddowes, there would have been no reason for the police to ask the suspect at the identification to say anything at all.

It is in any case very unlikely that a man with a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor would have been Jewish.

If I am right that the suspect at the identification would not have said anything, then the witness could hardly have found out that the suspect was Jewish until some time later, by which time the suspect would have been arrested and charged.

In that case, the suspect could not have been sent back home, as Swanson claimed happened.

[etenguy]

Thanks for your reply, etenguy.

In view of the fact that Lawende had testified that he did not hear any conversation between the suspect and the woman he identified as Eddowes, there would have been no reason for the police to ask the suspect at the identification to say anything at all.

It is in any case very unlikely that a man with a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor would have been Jewish.

If I am right that the suspect at the identification would not have said anything, then the witness could hardly have found out that the suspect was Jewish until some time later, by which time the suspect would have been arrested and charged.

In that case, the suspect could not have been sent back home, as Swanson claimed happened.

Hi PI

There are a lot of assumptions underlying your argument which I am not sure we can be certain about. Assuming this identifcation event took place, we do not know if Lawende was the person supposedly there (though that must be a good guess). And we cannot know what actually happened during the event nor at what point the suspect might have been identified as jewish. It is frustrating. Regarding the suspect being sent home - if the witness failed to deliver an identification at the event, then the suspect might have been free to go home.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi PI

There are a lot of assumptions underlying your argument which I am not sure we can be certain about. Assuming this identifcation event took place, we do not know if Lawende was the person supposedly there (though that must be a good guess). And we cannot know what actually happened during the event nor at what point the suspect might have been identified as jewish. It is frustrating. Regarding the suspect being sent home - if the witness failed to deliver an identification at the event, then the suspect might have been free to go home.

I assumed for the sake of argument that the identification took place.

If the police would not have asked the suspect to say anything - for the reason given - and the suspect did not say anything, then how could the witness possibly have discerned at the time of the identification that the suspect - who of necessity could not be of Jewish appearance - was in fact Jewish?

It would have had to be after the suspect had been charged, and possibly much later.

Neither Anderson nor Swanson ever mentioned any arrest, let alone any charges being brought.

And they both insisted that the witness did identify the suspect.