What are the chances of….?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or on the way back? From Goulston St? After changing a 'sanitary napkin'? Think outside the box Herlock...

I forgot about that one Al and I haven’t even mentioned the aardvark.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Indeed - entirely possible - but given the logistics of the night it seems to me to add to the circumstances which support that Lawende likely saw jtR - but you are right - it's not conclusive

I agree that the man that the three witnesses saw was likeliest to be the killer Eten. But as you say, nothing is conclusive.

[JeffHamm]

I forgot about that one Al and I haven’t even mentioned the aardvark.

indeed, I was about mention him myself.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

There are no other statements specifically mentioning a couple comprising a male and a female, other than Blenkinsop's newspaper report of someone asking him if he saw a couple. He doesn't confirm that he did, but he does allude to there being people around. Unfortunately, that is so vague that we don't know if "people" includes a male and female couple. He also doesn't indicate anyone was seen coming or going from the passage to Mitre Square.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I believe we discussed this on another thread, so I'll just cut and paste:

Derby Daily Telegraph 1 October 1888:
"indeed one of the policemen who saw the body [Eddowes] in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighbourhood of Aldgate High Street. . . . The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman [Watkins] pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose".

And this:
New York Times, Oct 2 1888:
"The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him. . . . a policeman swears he was not absent over 15 minutes from Mitre-Square, and must have been watched by both man and woman as he went through, they following".

Aldgate station, where Eddowes was arrested for being drunk, and across the road from Butcher's Row, where Sagar had a suspect under surveillance. What are the chances of her returning to meet a person with whom she had become inebriated earlier in the evening?

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I believe we discussed this on another thread, so I'll just cut and paste:

Derby Daily Telegraph 1 October 1888:
"indeed one of the policemen who saw the body [Eddowes] in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighbourhood of Aldgate High Street. . . . The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman [Watkins] pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose".

And this:
New York Times, Oct 2 1888:
"The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him. . . . a policeman swears he was not absent over 15 minutes from Mitre-Square, and must have been watched by both man and woman as he went through, they following".

Aldgate station, where Eddowes was arrested for being drunk, and across the road from Butcher's Row, where Sagar had a suspect under surveillance. What are the chances of her returning to meet a person with whom she had become inebriated earlier in the evening?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Ah, yes, there are those reports by the watchboy on Aldgate, although I had forgotten about them at the time of my previous post. I was referring just to the immediate areas for the 3 possible entrances to Mitre Square with regards to "no couples reported". Still, you are correct in that there was another couple mentioned. All the same, a couple spotted on Aldgate would still have to enter Mitre Square by one of those 3, and if the Aldgate couple seen by the watchboy is not the same as the Church Passage Couple, it would suggest they entered through one of the other routes. Or, if the Aldgate Couple is the CPC, but not Eddowes, again Eddowes must have entered a different way.

Reading over The Derby Daily Telegraph again, it doesn't actually report a sighting of Eddowes with a man, only it reports that Eddowes was seen around Aldgate High Street, the man is just part of the "police theory", etc.

The watchboy does say he saw a man and woman, but of course the woman is never identified by the watchboy as being Eddowes, so it could be something innocent like a man walking his fiancé home, but because they headed towards Mitre Square it sounds sinister. It is still an interesting addition to think about though. Thanks for the reminder.

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

the regular patrols suggest to me that Mitre Square was not likely to be soliciting ground.

I agree.

How long would Eddowes have waited in the Square for a prospective customer to appear, knowing that within the next ten minutes or so a policeman would enter the Square?

[etenguy]

I agree.

How long would Eddowes have waited in the Square for a prospective customer to appear, knowing that within the next ten minutes or so a policeman would enter the Square?

Hi PI

Yes, if Eddowes entered the square alone it was likely for a different reason than soliciting - but as Herlock mentions, it may have been a route to somewhere else she wanted to be. However, I agree with the general consensus that she most likely entered with a man to conduct her business but was instead met with murder.

[GBinOz]

The watchboy does say he saw a man and woman, but of course the woman is never identified by the watchboy as being Eddowes, so it could be something innocent like a man walking his fiancé home, but because they headed towards Mitre Square it sounds sinister. It is still an interesting addition to think about though. Thanks for the reminder.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I agree, but to be fair, Lawende didn't identify Eddowes either. He stated that her clothes looked like those worn by the woman he saw.

I look at what Eddowes might have done when she was released from the lockup that night. She could have been expected to go home, but was observed to head in the opposite direction. She might have decided to look for a client around Mitre Square, or she might have decided to return to where she was arrested earlier in the evening, perhaps to rendezvous with a man that she had been with earlier. Given that she claimed to know the identity of the ripper and she may have had blackmail on her mind, I lean slightly towards the latter. But I also take your point that said couple could also have been the CPC couple.

Cheers, George

[Lewis C]

Hi Jeff,

I agree, but to be fair, Lawende didn't identify Eddowes either. He stated that her clothes looked like those worn by the woman he saw.

I look at what Eddowes might have done when she was released from the lockup that night. She could have been expected to go home, but was observed to head in the opposite direction. She might have decided to look for a client around Mitre Square, or she might have decided to return to where she was arrested earlier in the evening, perhaps to rendezvous with a man that she had been with earlier. Given that she claimed to know the identity of the ripper and she may have had blackmail on her mind, I lean slightly towards the latter. But I also take your point that said couple could also have been the CPC couple.

Cheers, George

Are you saying that you lean toward the idea that she knew JtR's identity, and went to Mitre Square to meet with him for the purpose of blackmailing him? If so, I doubt that any woman would have been that reckless.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I agree, but to be fair, Lawende didn't identify Eddowes either. He stated that her clothes looked like those worn by the woman he saw.

I look at what Eddowes might have done when she was released from the lockup that night. She could have been expected to go home, but was observed to head in the opposite direction. She might have decided to look for a client around Mitre Square, or she might have decided to return to where she was arrested earlier in the evening, perhaps to rendezvous with a man that she had been with earlier. Given that she claimed to know the identity of the ripper and she may have had blackmail on her mind, I lean slightly towards the latter. But I also take your point that said couple could also have been the CPC couple.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

True, though I suppose it could be viewed as identifying her by her clothing, but we are getting into playing with semantics here. That aside, I recognize that Lawende's "identification" is a far cry from making a sure thing that the CPC included Eddowes.

While I don't mean to suggest I think this must have happened, I am inclined to think Eddowes may have gone to St. B's church as that was supposedly a location where prostitutes would congregate, and is a location that would also fit with the direction she headed when released. But, perhaps she did go back to where she was arrested, maybe in the hopes to find a pub open "after hours", which I'm sure happened then as it does now.

Personally, I doubt she went to meet someone specific that she was with earlier, and certainly not someone she was blackmailing. Given she was arrested, there was no way for her to know when she would be released. Also, there is no indication that there was a man with her at the time of her arrest. So, if she had been with someone earlier, but they separated, why would they arrange to meet back at 1 to 1:30ish, after the pubs had closed - and wasn't she lucky to be released in time to do that. There is no indication she tried to convince the police to let her out earlier for some pre-arranged meeting, so as far as I can see there is nothing to suggest she planned to meet someone specifically. I believe she had gone hopping before the murders, or maybe after Nichols and before Chapman? Either way, it seems unlikely she could have an idea as to who it was. But, let's say she did have an idea of who JtR was then it follows that idea must have formulated while hopping, and no doubt due to discussions with Kelly. As such, I'm sure Kelly would have been aware of her notions and would have given them to the police (there were private rewards he could have claimed after all). Moreover, if she was blackmailing someone, she would not meet them alone, at night, and go to a secluded location like Mitre Square with them. That just wouldn't make any sense, given what she suspects this person of doing. Obviously it is physically possible, but the entire blackmail line seems to me to require taking every unlikely turn possible in order to get there.

I rather suspect that Eddowes meeting with JtR was, like all the others, random. He was out looking for a victim, and she, unfortunately, crossed paths with him at a time when she was particularly vulnerable (still under the influence of booze, and desperate for money).

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree.

How long would Eddowes have waited in the Square for a prospective customer to appear, knowing that within the next ten minutes or so a policeman would enter the Square?

If you’d read my response you’d have seen that my suggestion didn’t involve Eddowes waiting in Mitre Square for a prospective customer. I merely suggested the possibility that she could passed through Mitre Square on the way to some unknown destination and the ripper was also crossing the square from one of the other two entrances.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If you’d read my response you’d have seen that my suggestion didn’t involve Eddowes waiting in Mitre Square for a prospective customer. I merely suggested the possibility that she could passed through Mitre Square on the way to some unknown destination and the ripper was also crossing the square from one of the other two entrances.

I had read your suggestion.

I was not responding to it that time.

I responded to it elsewhere.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I had read your suggestion.

I was not responding to it that time.

I responded to it elsewhere.

The only time that you responded to me on this thread was on the subject of the sailor. Not on the actual thread topic. You made a comment about the topic in a response to Jeff in the next post where you claimed your opinion as fact.

“It is obvious that Eddowes took the murderer to the darkest part of the Square, as Chapman took him into a dark yard, and Stride took him into another dark yard.”

This is a possibility. Probably the likeliest one. But it’s not a certainty.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The only time that you responded to me on this thread was on the subject of the sailor. Not on the actual thread topic. You made a comment about the topic in a response to Jeff in the next post where you claimed your opinion as fact.

“It is obvious that Eddowes took the murderer to the darkest part of the Square, as Chapman took him into a dark yard, and Stride took him into another dark yard.”

This is a possibility. Probably the likeliest one. But it’s not a certainty.

I did indeed respond to that point, but not to you directly:


And why would Eddowes have gone through deserted Mitre Square at about 1.30 a.m. in order to get to another place?

Is she not much more likely to have gone down streets?

(# 28)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I did indeed respond to that point, but not to you directly:


And why would Eddowes have gone through deserted Mitre Square at about 1.30 a.m. in order to get to another place?

Is she not much more likely to have gone down streets?

(# 28)

Because people take shortcuts if they are aware of them.