New way of thinking.

[Abby Normal]

Clearly, all 39 inhabitants of George Yard Buildings were involved - one stab each!

lol thats some good gallows wit right there

[Columbo]

it has the hallmarks of more then one person involved

how? Can't see that myself.

he must have carried some kind of parcel

why must he? Seems a bit shortsighted to say 'must'. Doesn't sound very practical either, rustling about with some newspaper.


I can see Richards point of view on two people killing Tabram. I still think it would have to be a noisy affair either way, unless she passed out or was choked first as he points out. It very well could be that the whole environment was a noisy place and people were just used to it and didn't notice her being killed. Not out of the realm of the thread topic.

As far as a parcel, I could see a burlap sack, some sort of rags with it. Not necessarily paper but I doubt no one would be suspicious if someone had a newspaper with them. Either way, taking a fresh organ out of a body and sticking it in something is messy business. Not something you would do on your way to work or home to a family.

Columbo

[Neil83]

I believe now that Mary Kelly Stole something of value from someone who wanted revenge, and the man that killed Eddowes was a hit , all he knew was the woman he was after was in the East End , and she was said to be living with a man called Kelly. Eddowes did live with a Kelly

This could fit with the record of an 18 year old Mary Kelly attending the Police Court in 1881 (which you are probably aware of, if so I apologise if I'm simply stating the obvious to people far more knowledgeable than myself, which you no doubt are!). The complainant was Woolf Cohen.

The likelyhood it's "the" Mary Kelly are slim of course, based on probability, but the age is correct. The details and the court record were on the other forum. Someone found a Woolf Cohen who was a Tailor and was 38 at that time. And a Woolf Cohen who, with others, was convicted for "keeping a place for the purpose of gaming, and permitting gambling". Elsewhere there's details of a Woolf Cohen, a Tailor on Leman Street.

If it's the same Woolf Cohen, assuming just for now that is, the "offense" this 18 year old Mary Kelly must have allegedly committed must, I would say, have been pretty serious for him to pursue the matter, and for the Police to also. I would say more "leeway" would be given to a young person by people in general, and the Police, even back then. And the fact she was a woman, perhaps even more.

Just theorising from now on, because before I saw the court record details etc a few weeks ago (I'm catching up, only looking into JtR for a couple of months at most) other factors had already led me to think that Mary Kelly had seriously upset someone at some point in her life. And then when reading the court record post considered a similar scenario that richardnunweek thinks possible (and only first saw this thread today).

If the Woolf Cohen from the court records is the Tailor Wolf Cohen, and it is "the correct" Mary Kelly then of course it could allow a different possibility as to how she was in possession of all those clothes. Maybe she worked for him at his business, maybe she was a servant at his home, and maybe the clothes were stolen in some way which involved her, as an inside job so to speak. She may have had to move from the area after being rumbled, regardless of whether she was convicted or not, and had to return years later when things went wrong there. It could explain why at least 2 people say they knew her for longer than it's believed she lived in the area. And it could have been the real reason she seems to have been scared for her own safety in the build up to her murder, assuming the victim was her. I can't find it now but I believe one friend said she seemed scared of "someone", or words to that effect, and that doesn't seem to suggest it was JtR (but she no doubt was too). Or Joseph Barnett, or any other ex partner as it's more likely she'd have told that friend, or others, more details. It could even explain why it seems she jumped from one reasonably steady relationship to another, for safety in particular, and why she had different people staying with her. Especially as only weeks after being on her own, she's killed.

It's more than likely that that exact scenario is BS of course, and based on 2 very dangerous assumptions to begin with. But even disregarding it, theres quite a few factors that show (I think anyway) that Mary Kelly seriously P'd someone off somehow like richardnunweek says, and "someone" was looking for her and she knew it. She could have done, and they may have been, and then she might have fell victim to JtR randomly as is most commonly believed. But with the Eddowes "Mary Kelly" name coincidence, the lack of any murders for over a month until Mary Kelly herself, and then how they suddenly seem to stop completely, added to everything else - its possible that richardnunweek is right and a new approach is needed because certain coincidences do seem to stack up. If there is more to the Mary Kelly murder, it's possible Joseph Barnett may have been kept occupied on purpose that night, for example, to keep him out the way by making sure he was playing cards at the time. If it wasn't a random JtR murder, and Mary Kelly was searched for, found and targeted - the possibility becomes far more likely, along with lots of others.

[John Wheat]

Hi,
For countless years , I have gone with the flow when thinking who the Ripper was . was it five victims , or maybe six counting Tabram , and what about post Millers court.?.
I have come to the conclusion we should alter our views , because this line of inquiry is most likely all wrong.
I now believe that Emma smith , was attacked by a gang [ as she stated,]
Martha Tabram , killed in a dispute, maybe by a man and a woman , [ Pearly Poll maybe?]
Polly Nichols was killed by a unknown killer who was after body parts , but halted his act , when he was aware of people close by.
Annie chapman by the same killer, who succeeded in obtaining it.
[ Letter to the police. 'I killed the woman that i was after , that is Chapman'' I believe summed that pair of murders up..
Three weeks later a womans throat was cut in Dutfields yard, Unknown
Same night Eddowes was killed by a unknown killer , viciously mutilated , by someone who was to kill the last victim Mary Kelly.
Why?
I believe now that Mary Kelly Stole something of value from someone who wanted revenge, and the man that killed Eddowes was a hit , all he knew was the woman he was after was in the East End , and she was said to be living with a man called Kelly. Eddowes did live with a Kelly. , but if she said that, he would have said do you know of a woman aged twenties living with a Kelly , As Eddowes knew Dorset street she most likely knew a woman living with Kelly. thus he then having his target,
When Eddowes was arrested, and if the man was nearby , he would have maybe have been aware of 'Nothing,' She gave her name as Mary Ann Kelly at the station , so initially, it may have meant at the time of arrested, she said 'Nothing' when asked her name[ as in no comment] .
So why was she killed ?
Simply because when Mary Kelly was killed , she would have been aware of the man who was asking questions, and she may describe him. so she was despatched as soon as he saw her, which happened to be a few hours later. in a copy cat version of the previous murders.
Now the writing on the wall 'The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for Nothing.'
I interpret as The jews are the men not to be blamed for nothing, meaning they are not responsible for her death,.
Now Mary Kelly
George Hutchinson. Liar, Killer witness.
Witness, He saw the man he described , and that man was hot the man that was Kellys killer, Hutchinson had too good a look at him for that man to have killed Mary.
I do believe she met her killer in the morning who could not despatch her, in copy cat fashion , because of Hutchinsons man during the night,
The murders then stopped. and no one was ever arrested, and tried, because the police put the series as a result of one man. and alibis therefore were tight,
All sounds B movie material. but a lot of facts fit these speculations.
Best Regards Richard.

What facts meet these wild speculations?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi
What i was saying was, in a roundabout way, if someone was suspected after Millers court , and they had say a alibi for Nichols , Chapman etc they would have not taken them as strong suspects. as they believed it was the work of the same man .
Richard

After many years posting here its still a pleasure when I see that someone is willing to risk the inevitable written lashes so they can express what they believe. I am of a different mindset than you richard, although far from the long accepted path as well, but I posted on the above statement because its something Ive experienced here. I look for suspects for cases, not A suspect for a Series, and for my money I think Isenschmidt is a very good candidate for Annie Chapmans murder, and due to their similar theme, perhaps Polly's too. But he wasnt free when the Double Event happened, or when the Millers Court murder took place, so almost every Ripperologist posting assumes that my later suggestions that Liz, Kate and Mary were not "Ripper" victims was just to support my belief about Jacob. I almost said "bolster" there,...must be more careful.

Unlike many of my fellow students, I have no horse in the race, and each of the cases have been reviewed, by me, in isolation over the many years Ive also studied these crimes. I dont know who this Jack was, or if there was a Jack, I just believe that the man who killed Annie Chapman deserves the name.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi
Good point
How do you keep someone quite whilst stabbing 39 times
She was on a tenement landing , feet from residents .
Strangled first Dagger through the heart, then proceed to stab in a frenzy?
It has the hallmarks of more then one person involved , but all committed in silence
Strange .
He must have carried some kind of parcel, several were seen carrying news paper parcels,
There is so much we cannot know,
But somewhere mixed up in all the research over the years , lies the truth of what happened that Autumn .
Regards Richard,.

I think there are reasonable explanations for the issues of the small and larger knife, and one pertains to the soldier seen loitering that night by a PC and stating he was waiting for a friend. We know Martha was seen in the company of a soldier earlier that evening, we know it was a Bank Holiday and soldiers were out and about... being able to wear their uniforms and daggers and swords openly, in groups or pairs. If the man who Martha was on the landing with is a soldier, he covered her mouth with one hand and stabbed with his other hand holding a pen knife, could it be possible that a pal out with him comes looking for him to see whats taking so long, sees the situation and the woman slumped after being stabbed some 38 times, but still alive. He uses a larger blade he has on him to effectively end her suffering, through her heart, and that allows the both of them to get away.

Its a story, but I dont believe its impossible it happened that way. I dont see one man changing knives for just 1 stab, and if 1 man had a pen knife and a larger knife on him, why would he start stabbing using a pen knife?