How to make Ripperology better?

[rjpalmer]

I agree with you that characters like this, and Bury, deserve at least as much attention, if not more, than Liverpudlian cotton brokers or cricket-playing barristers who have no history of serious violence against women

The playing field is not even.

[John Wheat]

Hi John,

There was a group of people who, it seems, ran the brothels on the Breezer’s Hill/Pennington Street corner while MJK was there and who moved their operations to Limehouse shortly after her death. They included Johannes (John) Morgenstern and Stephen Maywood.

While in Limehouse, Morgenstern carried out a vicious attack on three women who had upset his female partner (presumably Elizabeth Boekee), kicking one between the legs, stabbing another, and after removing his jacket and waistcoat, beating the third with a poker.

Maywood was a horse dealer with connections to Romford who after leaving Limehouse went on to buy numerous properties - houses, farms etc - in Essex, several of which mysteriously burned down. His story is fascinating.

I agree with you that characters like this, and Bury, deserve at least as much attention, if not more, than Liverpudlian cotton brokers or cricket-playing barristers who have no history of serious violence against women and who may never even have set foot in the East End in the late 1880s.


Gary

You make some good points Gary and thanks for the information.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

I think everyone you mention is a valid suspect-also flemming, kosminsky and chapman all had a history of violence against women. and were there at the time.

however I would caution that the likes of hutch lech and druitt etc, might not have had a "documented" history of violence against women, but could have we just didnt hear about it.

Also, i would point out that post mortem type serial killers usually DONT have a documented history of violence against there victim gender ie-bundy, dahmer gein brudos. (until theyre caught of course). so theres that.

but dont get me wrong-suspects with a history of violence-it is a check mark in favor of there being the ripper.

You make some fair points Abby. But I don't rate Lechmere in particular as a suspect. We know a lot about him and there is nothing whatsoever that points to him being the Ripper. He found a body so what? Someone had to.

Cheers John

[MrBarnett]

Hi Mr Barnett
I happen to agree with you. I for some time have rated men with histories of violence against women that could have been in London at the time of the Ripper murders as good suspects. My top suspect William Henry Bury had a history of violence against his wife who and I make no secret of this I believe was Jack. However after Bury I have James Kelly and now I would put Johannes Morgenstern at three. People seem to make the mistake of believing that Jack suddenly became a serial killer without any history of violence whatsoever. Which is frankly preposterous. Ripperology would be improved if suspects with a history of violence and were in or could have been in London were looked at before those that didn't.

Cheers John

Hi John,

There was a group of people who, it seems, ran the brothels on the Breezer’s Hill/Pennington Street corner while MJK was there and who moved their operations to Limehouse shortly after her death. They included Johannes (John) Morgenstern and Stephen Maywood.

While in Limehouse, Morgenstern carried out a vicious attack on three women who had upset his female partner (presumably Elizabeth Boekee), kicking one between the legs, stabbing another, and after removing his jacket and waistcoat, beating the third with a poker.

Maywood was a horse dealer with connections to Romford who after leaving Limehouse went on to buy numerous properties - houses, farms etc - in Essex, several of which mysteriously burned down. His story is fascinating.

I agree with you that characters like this, and Bury, deserve at least as much attention, if not more, than Liverpudlian cotton brokers or cricket-playing barristers who have no history of serious violence against women and who may never even have set foot in the East End in the late 1880s.


Gary

[Abby Normal]

I think so, Abby. There were three Dutch Morgenstern brothers in London at the time. Johannes was the one who lived on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezer’s Hill when MJK was there. His partner was Elizabeth Boekee, the Mrs ‘Buki’ who accompanied Kelly to retrieve her dresses from the French lady who had been her previous employer in the west end.

thanks gary!

[MrBarnett]

is morganstern the same as morganstone?

I think so, Abby. There were three Dutch Morgenstern brothers in London at the time. Johannes was the one who lived on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezer’s Hill when MJK was there. His partner was Elizabeth Boekee, the Mrs ‘Buki’ who accompanied Kelly to retrieve her dresses from the French lady who had been her previous employer in the west end.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Mr Barnett
I happen to agree with you. I for some time have rated men with histories of violence against women that could have been in London at the time of the Ripper murders as good suspects. My top suspect William Henry Bury had a history of violence against his wife who and I make no secret of this I believe was Jack. However after Bury I have James Kelly and now I would put Johannes Morgenstern at three. People seem to make the mistake of believing that Jack suddenly became a serial killer without any history of violence whatsoever. Which is frankly preposterous. Ripperology would be improved if suspects with a history of violence and were in or could have been in London were looked at before those that didn't.

Cheers John

I think everyone you mention is a valid suspect-also flemming, kosminsky and chapman all had a history of violence against women. and were there at the time.

however I would caution that the likes of hutch lech and druitt etc, might not have had a "documented" history of violence against women, but could have we just didnt hear about it.

Also, i would point out that post mortem type serial killers usually DONT have a documented history of violence against there victim gender ie-bundy, dahmer gein brudos. (until theyre caught of course). so theres that.

but dont get me wrong-suspects with a history of violence-it is a check mark in favor of there being the ripper.

[John Wheat]

The moment of sense might have been the mention of Johannes Morgenstern in connection with the murder of Mary Kelly. Contrary to what Ike suggested earlier, I’m not pushing him as a suspect. I’m just amazed that the man who may well have been Kelly’s former pimp, a man with form for extreme violence against women, is barely ever discussed.

Hi Mr Barnett
I happen to agree with you. I for some time have rated men with histories of violence against women that could have been in London at the time of the Ripper murders as good suspects. My top suspect William Henry Bury had a history of violence against his wife who and I make no secret of this I believe was Jack. However after Bury I have James Kelly and now I would put Johannes Morgenstern at three. People seem to make the mistake of believing that Jack suddenly became a serial killer without any history of violence whatsoever. Which is frankly preposterous. Ripperology would be improved if suspects with a history of violence and were in or could have been in London were looked at before those that didn't.

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

If we take Morgenstern as a suspect we have to ask if he is a suspect for Kelly's murder alone, and if so, then who killed the rest?
Or, was he responsible for most of the others, and ended with Kelly?
If a connection between Morgenstern & any of the other victims should turn up then this would be a welcome turn of events.

Morgenstern would at least be a genuine suspect as opposed to most of the 'straw-men' suspects we end up being presented with.

is morganstern the same as morganstone?

[Abby Normal]

Ironically, it was because of the Diary that Stephen & Johnno put Casebook together back in the mid 90's.

Judging by some of the responses above, even sarcasm is taken too seriously.

yes Im aware of that. at least one good thing came out of it! : )

[Wickerman]

The moment of sense might have been the mention of Johannes Morgenstern in connection with the murder of Mary Kelly. Contrary to what Ike suggested earlier, I’m not pushing him as a suspect. I’m just amazed that the man who may well have been Kelly’s former pimp, a man with form for extreme violence against women, is barely ever discussed.

If we take Morgenstern as a suspect we have to ask if he is a suspect for Kelly's murder alone, and if so, then who killed the rest?
Or, was he responsible for most of the others, and ended with Kelly?
If a connection between Morgenstern & any of the other victims should turn up then this would be a welcome turn of events.

Morgenstern would at least be a genuine suspect as opposed to most of the 'straw-men' suspects we end up being presented with.

[Wickerman]

How to make ripperology better?
Stop with the endless blather about maybrick watches, diaries, initials on walls, tin foil hat conspiracy theories, ridiculous "suspects" and the ripper didnt exist nonsense.

would be a big first step thats for sure.

Ironically, it was because of the Diary that Stephen & Johnno put Casebook together back in the mid 90's.

Judging by some of the responses above, even sarcasm is taken too seriously.

[MrBarnett]

A moment of sense? Come off it the killer writing initials in blood is the biggest pile of bull crap. It's clearly just random blood spatter.

The moment of sense might have been the mention of Johannes Morgenstern in connection with the murder of Mary Kelly. Contrary to what Ike suggested earlier, I’m not pushing him as a suspect. I’m just amazed that the man who may well have been Kelly’s former pimp, a man with form for extreme violence against women, is barely ever discussed.

[John Wheat]

Sigh.

Whilst all this self-congratulation is going on, can I offer a moment of sense?

Wickerman was confused by Johannes Morgenstern's initials as they were shared with James Maybrick (obviously) but which were not the initials the latter wrote on Mary Kelly's wall. I mean, not the initials random blood splatters wrote so articulately on Mary Kell's wall.

Ike
Let's Keep It Together Here

A moment of sense? Come off it the killer writing initials in blood is the biggest pile of bull crap. It's clearly just random blood spatter.

[Abby Normal]

How to make ripperology better?
Stop with the endless blather about maybrick watches, diaries, initials on walls, tin foil hat conspiracy theories, ridiculous "suspects" and the ripper didnt exist nonsense.

would be a big first step thats for sure.