If There Were Multiple Killers Wouldn't We Expect to See More Killings?

[mklhawley]

Lynn, Simon,

Phil H. made an interesting point about the Chamber of Horrors museum, which was less than 100 yards away from the Pranzini-style Nichols murder, being a possible motivator for one or more copycats continuing the Whitechapel murder spree. Interesting thought.

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

I'm with your third possibility.

People in denial call it historical revisionism, but I prefer to call it common sense.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

Master the possibilities.

Hello Nic.

"I find it hard to believe that he just stopped killing. The other possibility was that he was sent to prison or even an asylum."

Or a third possibility: he never existed to begin with.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

If been thinking about this. We sort of think that Jack died spectacularly.

I don't. The most "spectacular" death I ever imagine for him is a sort of karmic one, where he gets septicemia, or some other kind of global, very acute infection, and dies, after nicking himself with a knife that could have tetanus, Hep-C (I think that was around then) E. coli, and syphilis on it. Does anyone know what happens if you get blood-borne syphilis? The disease was common enough, there had to be an occasion of someone cutting someone with syphilis, then cutting themselves with the same knife, and people were doing blood transfusions before they had identified the syphilis micro-organism, I'm pretty sure. Of course, in those cases, already ill people got a pretty large dose, and since some people didn't survive a blood transfusion, because blood types were unknown, I suppose it's possible that transfusion-borne syphilis did you in really quickly. I oughtta look that up.

I do think that someone well enough to do what was done to MJK wasn't in a sharp decline from something like TB or an alcoholic decline, but he may have had an acute infection, and that's why he wanted the room so warm.

That doesn't rule out the possibility of him being in a slow decline from cancer, where a person can be at near-normal health one day, and unable to get out of bed three months later-- the aggressive type of pancreatic cancer, for example. Since it was normal (assuming C4/5) for JTR to take a few weeks between victims, he could go from almost 100% of his normal health, by his own perception, when MJK died, to having a lot of back pain, and unable to lift heavy objects, or bend over without a lot of pain by the end of December, but thinking it'll go away, and ignoring it, until he starts to have trouble standing up, and speaking clearly after another month goes by, at which point he realizes something is very wrong.

Minus the murdered women, that's a lot like what happened to my father. He was well enough in early November to be the university's representative at a lunch with Mikhail Gorbachev when he visited the US (my father's Russian was perfect), but was in terrible pain in the New Year, using a wheelchair by the end of January, not speaking clearly by mid-February, and dead by March 25.

[Nic1950]

Hi

I have never thought of Jack as a younger man, maybe middle aged and upwards but I do think that there is a chance that he died. It probably wasn't anything spectacular but I find it hard to believe that he just stopped killing. The other possibility was that he was sent to prison or even an asylum.
Thanks
Nic

[Errata]

So, if JTR was in his early-mid 40s in 1888, it is possible that he killed Mary Kelly, and stopped.

If been thinking about this. We sort of think that Jack died spectacularly. Drowned himself in the Thames, got himself shot, executed by masons or whatever. But what if he stopped because he died? And what if he died because he was a typical Whitechapel man who was older, a heavy drinker, malnourished, exposed to dozens of diseases, been the victim of a whole slew of respiratory problems including TB, and he died because we at the end of his natural life as a poor, undernourished, undervalued man working dangerous menial jobs and compensating through drugs and alcohol? What if he just died of comparative old age? We think of him as young. But he could just as easily have been more mature. Would a woman think to guard herself against a white haired man wearing the weight of his years? And I don't mean he was like 90. I mean maybe he was 45-50.

Does that suck too much of the romance and mystery out of why he stopped if the reason is "he stopped because he dropped dead from his chronic high blood pressure"?

[RivkahChaya]

For instance Morrison's theory on James Kelly, that he killed Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes to get to Kelly. I just don't think there was a personal vendetta, hence the reason for me thinking that when the murders stopped in Whitechapel there was a physical reason behind it, he died, moved or was incarcerated.

James Kelly is my favorite modern suspect (which does not mean I think he did it, it just means I think the case against him is way better than the cases against Gull, Sickert, Maybrick, Prince Eddy, et al.), but I agree that any theory of the crime with the murder of Mary Jane Kelly as the final goal is silly.

I do think it is possible that the Ripper just stopped. I didn't used to think that was possible, until Gary Ridgway was finally arrested for the Green River murders, and it turned out that he had just gotten bored with serial killings, the way other people lose enthusiasm for ordinary hobbies.

I have no evidence whatsoever to back it up, but I would guess that if JTR did simply stop, he was probably middle-aged, and not at an age when men tend to have, umm, "eager" sexual appetites. I think if JTR's enthusiasm for his type of murder tapered off, it would be around the same age that men's sexual appetites normally wind down a little.

I can't think, off-hand, of anyone other than Gary Ridgway-- oh, wait, Dennis Rader, "BTK" committed his murders over a 17-year period, when he was aged 29-46, then stopped. He started writing letters to the police again in 2004, and that's when he was caught, but he did not kill again.

So, if JTR was in his early-mid 40s in 1888, it is possible that he killed Mary Kelly, and stopped.

[Nic1950]

Hi

I'm not on board with the hidden agenda theory just because its seems a lot easier to bump someone off without going to the lengths Jack did. For instance Morrison's theory on James Kelly, that he killed Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes to get to Kelly. I just don't think there was a personal vendetta, hence the reason for me thinking that when the murders stopped in Whitechapel there was a physical reason behind it, he died, moved or was incarcerated.
Thanks
Nic

[caz]

Hi Rivkah,

Don't forget we are meant to be thinking out of the box here. So don't think one crazy horse followed by a copycat horse working to a different agenda; think one crazy horse followed by an even crazier pink and white striped zebra with a highly creative streak working to another zebra's agenda.

Well, why not?

Love,

Caz
X

[RivkahChaya]

I think he killed so he, or someone he was working for, wouldnt get into trouble. And he was rational enough to attempt to replicate horrific acts as a way to conceal the murder motive within a serial killers murder spree.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that Kelly, and possibly Eddowes, were targeted for specific reasons? What on earth, other than a crazy stalker (which I'm sure prostitutes get from time to time), would cause a person to target Mary Jane Kelly, let alone Eddowes? Eddowes hadn't even been back in Whitechapel that long, had she?

If Kelly was some kind of petty informant, informing, on, say, burglars, or black-marketeers, what makes you think that simply threatening her wouldn't stop her? It's not as though she was getting rich off of it, or it was her entire livelihood.

Besides, even in the case of something like the Murder by Decree scenario, what overkill. If the idea was to make Kelly's murder look like other local murders, then it would look more like them. Or, it would look like Stride's murder, because the hit man might shy away from the abdominal mutilations. Why on earth would someone with a task to accomplish, nothing more or less, take the time to do something that would turn Ed Gein's stomach? Aside from the disgust factor, it adds time, and it runs the risk of something tripping him up-- he cuts himself, or his clothes, he gets himself too gory to make an inconspicuous escape, he gets hot and sweaty, takes his outer clothing off, then leaves something behind. The fact that none of those things seems to have happened doesn't change the fact that they were all at risk with such an overdone escapade.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think I added to another thread saying that post Kelly murder, I am of the opinion that and I am sure someone will tell me if they do not agree but I believe JTR died, was incarcerated or left the area or country. Based on that I am keeping my mind open to the remaining suspects!! Does anyone have another opinion why the murders stopped in Whitechapel?
Thanks
Nic

Hi Nic,

Dont forget these cases remained open until 1892...and the spring of 89 had a murder that created the same paranoia as Jack did, and was remarkably similar in many respects. There are letters alleging to be from Jack as late as 1896 I believe, in one he mentions the Goulston Street Grafitto pretty specifically..even though only a handful of officers saw the writing before it was erased.

I think the "Ripper" murders stopped after Mary Kelly because her killer didnt need to continue killing. At least not in Whitechapel that Fall. He didnt kill to satisfy his demons...I think he killed so he, or someone he was working for, wouldnt get into trouble. And he was rational enough to attempt to replicate horrific acts as a way to conceal the murder motive within a serial killers murder spree.

I think if the man that killed Mary Ann and Polly wasnt incarcerated or institutionalized, then we would have seen quite a few more like them.

Best regards

[Nic1950]

Hi all,

I think I added to another thread saying that post Kelly murder, I am of the opinion that and I am sure someone will tell me if they do not agree but I believe JTR died, was incarcerated or left the area or country. Based on that I am keeping my mind open to the remaining suspects!! Does anyone have another opinion why the murders stopped in Whitechapel?
Thanks
Nic

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

To Caz, I wasnt selling anything other than an unencumbered evidence review as the primary source of our murderers trail. I think Fishermans point about the amount of mentally ill people within greater London at the time is one of the pieces of this thread puzzle.

Best regards

[Fisherman]

Hello Nic, Fisherman, all,

maybe it should also be taken into consideration that there must have been quite a few traumatised immigrants in the East End who had fled from the religious or political pogroms in their home country, that specially goes for Jews and Russians. This could be another reason (next to the daily horrors of industrialisation) as to why the number of mentally ill persons rose dramatically between 1850 and 1890.

Regards,

Boris

A good point, Boris - and letīs keep track of the fact too, that London was an immensely fast-growing city. The influx of people was huge.

The best,
Fisherman

[bolo]

Hello Nic, Fisherman, all,

maybe it should also be taken into consideration that there must have been quite a few traumatised immigrants in the East End who had fled from the religious or political pogroms in their home country, that specially goes for Jews and Russians. This could be another reason (next to the daily horrors of industrialisation) as to why the number of mentally ill persons rose dramatically between 1850 and 1890.

Regards,

Boris