If There Were Multiple Killers Wouldn't We Expect to See More Killings?

[kensei]

Just thought I'd pop in here, and say that I agree with the few who think it is at the very least not completely impossible that all of the C5 plus Tabram plus the Torso killings were all the work of one person, the infamous and notorious Jack the Ripper. I'm not saying I absolutely believe that 100%, but I do tend to lean in that direction. A movie comes to mind, "Henry," which I know was a fictionalized story loosely based on a real killer, in which he instructs his wanna-be apprentice to always vary your m.o. so that you can't possibly be linked to everything.

[Fisherman]

Rivkah Chaya:

"the abdominal mutilations are what seemed to get JTR off, and the torsos didn't have those"

You are aware, I take it, that the Whitehall torso had had the uterus removed? And that there was an abdominal gash in the Pinchin Street torso? So we may need to be a bit cautious before writing an interest in the abdomen off.

Otherwise, you are of course right - the differences were very obvious. But that should not necessarily tell us that the killer was not the same, only that the results of his actions varied IF it was just the one killer.

There are of course differences inbetween the torso victims too. In all cases but one, the killer mocked the authorities by spending considerable time and effort to distribute body parts all over London.
Not so with the Pinchin Street torso, however. And interestingly, this is the one torso that surfaces smack in the middle of Ripper country. And it had Bagster Phillips concluding that the knifework of the neck was very similar to the butchery Kelly´s neck had been subjected to.

In my own personal opinion, this torso is of great interest, since I champion Lechmere as the killer. And the Pinchin Street torso was found more or less on the doorstep of Lechmere´s mothers quarters on Cable Street. One could also - for good measure - add that Maria Louisa Lechmere was listed in the 1891 census as a cat´s meat woman, that is to say a woman who dealt in cutting up dead horses, selling them as cat´s meat.

It is enough to make me raise an eyebrow. Others may do what they wish with their respective eyebrows, though, as long as they don´t claim that there were no signs of abdominal mutilations in the torso cases.

All very controversial, I´m sure - but there you are!

The best,
Fisherman

[RivkahChaya]

I don't know why it is always regarded as an impossibility that the torsos couldn't be by the same perpetrator as the Whitechapel murders.

The MO is too different. First, the abdominal mutilations are what seemed to get JTR off, and the torsos didn't have those. Second, the bodies were dumped, instead of left where they were killed, which suggested that the torso killer had a place where he could take women to be in privacy, and further that the dismemberment was possibly just to make the body dump easier. If you dump a dismembered body in the water, the abdomen will fill with gas after a while, and rise to the surface, but the limbs and head won't.

It's also possible that the torso killer didn't want the victim to be identified, which means they were connected to him in some way. People are likely to recognize a face, and the heads may have been removed for that reason as well. Or, he kept them. Jeffrey Dahmer had a collection of skulls.

[Lechmere]

I don't know why it is always regarded as an impossibility that the torsos couldn't be by the same perpetrator as the Whitechapel murders.

[Wickerman]

I, BTW, I also think Tabram was a victim of JtR.

It was suggested that Emma Smith might have made up the story of her being attacked by a gang, rather than admit to the shame of her prostituting herself.

Keeping in mind the attacks on both Smith and Tabram, if we reflect on the Yorkshire Ripper's attack on Emily Jackson, we find a victim who was stabbed 52 times, and a length of wood pushed into her vagina.

I normally don't consider either Smith or Tabram as Ripper victims, but there is no good argument against the possibility.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

We can also conclude that however many killers there were that they all managed to elude the police.

c.d.

Well, they managed to elude police capture, but not police notice. They didn't either hide the body so well that it remains officially a disappearance, and not a murder, or by the time it was found, the TOD could be fixed to an approximate year only; or manage to make the murder look like an accident or suicide, or frame someone else (unless, one of the "JTR" murders is a deliberate copycat to cover a deliberate killing of a specific woman).

Every victim at inquest, in other words was "willful murder by person or persons unknown," (if I got the wording right).

I'm not really sure what that means-- JTR wasn't terribly concerned about getting caught, or didn't think much into the future, or just thought the police were fools. Probably some combination of the first two, not so much the third.

[RivkahChaya]

I agree with Errata, multiple killers doesn't mean multiple serial killers.

This, very much.

Also, bear in mind that some killers move around. Ted Bundy left victims in Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, Colorado, Utah and Florida, and probably also in California. He spent time in New York, but he was never tentatively matched to a victim there (and Debbie Harry was just wrong, because he didn't have the Beetle in New York; good story, though). Rodney Alcala had victims in both California and New York, that we know of. The reason they are worth mentioning, is that they were both "working" at the same time, leaving victims in the same states, which also happened to be the same approximate time David (Son of Sam,) Berkowitz was killing people in Queens, New York (part of New York City, but Bundy and Alcala were in Manhattan).

Now, I don't believe each JTR victim was killed by a separate serial killer, but it is possible that one or two genuine serial killers (in addition to the torso killer) stopped in London in the fall of 1888, killed 1, 2, or 3 victims, and left the jurisdiction. Most of the investigations into possible American victims have been pretty bogus, IMO, but if you look in the US for victims who fits the pattern of only Nichols and Chapman, you find some more promising connections.

Also, just a thought, that I don't consider especially likely, but considering people have looked at Lewis Carroll and Prince Eddy, as well as masonic conspiracies, has anyone looked in Sweden for something along the line of prostitutes killed by whatever the 1888s version of a pimp was? Maybe Stride left some nastiness behind, and it caught up with her. In that case, we won't find any similar murders in London.

Here's a funny quote, from American stand-up comic, John Mulaney:

On Cold Case Files [an American TV show documenting the resolution of old cases] they solve old murders and it's really interesting. What I learned from it is that it was really easy to get away with murder before they knew about DNA.

[RavenDarkendale]

Hi, Nic

If we accept your scenario as what really happened, progression from Matha Tabram to Mary Kelly, then Joseph Barnett would have to lead the pack as for suspects, because the absolute destruction of the body at Miller's Court speaks of a personal vendetta.

I, BTW, I also think Tabram was a victim of JtR. But personally, I discount Stride and I am not convinced the body in 13 Miller's Court actually was Mary Kelly, nor a victim of JtR.I take the witnesses who saw Kelly alive after that body was dead seriously. Their testimony wasn't liked at the time because it conflicted with stated TOD, and people now want to think that the witnesses were wrong or the TOD was wrong, perhaps both. As long as they are stuck on the notion that the body was Mary Kelly, they cannot see that the witnesses and TOD were both right and the victim was one of the women who occasionally roomed with MJK. This sharing of the room is what upset Barnett.

[Nic1950]

Hi all

Possibility of 2 killers?......maybe. My opinion is that it's one man only, one man who's confidence grows with each killing. The Stride murder has always been questioned due to the lack of further mutilation but I feel that Eddowes would not have been a victim if he had more time with Stride. Lets look at the Tabram murder which was a stabbing frenzy so compared to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly it would seem the work of different hands but let us suppose that the Tabram murder only increased his hatred, give him a taste and with each victim the mutilations became worse until we reach Kelly. The idea that two people living in close proximity who are psychotic killers with a desire to mutilate seems unlikely.

[Michael W Richards]

Cd,

We have within 3 months, 6 unsolved murders. I would think that statistically that number, within that time frame and specific geographical area, is more unsolved murders than you might see in any given period since they began recording such events. So why would we need more murders to convince us of the possibility of multiple murderers, we already have more than could have been predicted.

The issue here isnt whether there were multiple killer(s), the issue is how many were active during this period in time. We know of at least 2...Torso Man, a multiple murderer in all probability, and whomever killed the Canonicals.

Which is more likely...that one man killed all 6 women, despite the obvious differences in some of the killings...or that someone or some people killed Martha, some people killed the Canonicals, and someone made Torsos.

Cheers cd

[RavenDarkendale]

More bodies is not necessarily needed for multiple killers. Spur of the moment, heat of passion killers usually kill once only. For any of the Whitechapel Victims right on up to Frances Coles, a spur of the moment killing is possible, even the slashed ones, if we conjecture that the slashes were born of anger. A copycat could have done any murder after Polly Nichols, to make it seem a pattern.

But there's the thing. The Torso Killings were also taking place. Who knows how many bodies were never found. between JtR, the Torso Killer, and copycats? Maybe there were more bodies. But to believe in multiple killers doesn't require any more than those about which we know.

[bolo]

Hello c.d., Errata, all,

I agree with Errata, multiple killers doesn't mean multiple serial killers. If Liz Stride and Mary Kelly were murdered by different hands, the perpetrators may have slipped under the radar because they didn't fit to the idea of a criminal mastermind with almost superhuman abilities as propagated by parts of the press.

Maybe the higher-ups in the Police force were not as easy to impress with these tales than the people of the East End and other parts of the country, but something tells me that all that talk about a cunning Jack and the "no Englishman could have done it" chauvinism had a negative impact on the idea of a possible suspect of the normal Constables on the beat or Sergeants on duty.

Regards,

Boris

[lynn cates]

caught

Hello CD. That's a good point. Of course, if I happen to be right about JI, then, as a matter of fact, they DID catch him.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good

Hello Errata. Excellent reasoning. Should have read your post before replying.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

base assumptions

Hello CD. Good idea for a thread.

What you are saying is absolutely correct, PROVIDED that they are all serial killers bent on random killing.

Although I cannot speak for others, I know of no one who believes that.

Can you think of any?

Cheers.
LC