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A Theory -The access to Mary Kelly

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  • As I suspected you have nothing to back up your claim that Kennedy was exposed as a plagiariser beyond your highly convoluted 21st century theorising.
    Which century would you prefer me to theorise from, Lechmere?

    And I'm flattered and everything, but the reality of the Kennedy situation was first spotted by Philip Sugden, not me. It is no more my original "theory" than Cross-the-ripper is yours I'm afraid.

    As you seem to be basing your theory on the Star’s report of 10th November 1888, please allow me to knock that spoke out of your band wagon.
    Uh-oh. Fasten your seatbelt, Mr. Sugden. Looks like Lechmere is about to give us a bumpy ride here...

    But who was this woman (‘as reported below’) who heard the cry of ‘Murder’? The cry which their reported regarded as ‘a fabrication’? Why it was Mrs Kennedy!
    ...or not.

    Did you read the post where I addressed this very detail? Why no! Here it is again: They (The Star) may have assumed, incorrectly, that Kennedy was the original witness, and that other women had parrotted her account (an issue that was cleared up when Lewis appeared at the inquest and Kennedy didn't). Indeed, they may well have concluded erroneously that the entire "oh murder" account was a fabrication, but what could be more understandable given that the report only appeared in the very immediate aftermath of the Kelly murder, and that "half a dozen" women were gumming up the works by providing a chinese-whispered version of the said "oh murder" account? It is hardly surprising, under those circumstances, that the proverbial baby may have been thrown out with the bathwater.

    The striking similarity between the Lewis and Kennedy accounts informs us immediately that the phenomenon described by the Star – that of other bogus witnesses parroting an “oh murder” story – not only happened, but made the papers. Otherwise, we’re left with another one of those absurd “coincidences” that some people seem hell bent on pretending to find plausible. Mrs. Kennedy’s own “oh murder” account was both suspiciously similar to Lewis’ (albeit incorporating a sighting of Kelly herself!) and dropped before the inquest, tying in precisely with the Star’s observation. The only error they appeared to have made was their attempt to identify the original source, which was unquestionably Sarah Lewis, who definitely stayed opposite Kelly on the night of the murder, was interviewed by the police, and was called to the inquest...and not Kennedy.

    It would seem that the Star reported caught up with Kennedy in the vicinity of Miller’s Court
    No, it wouldn't "seem" that way at all. That is completely presumptuous as I've explained already. We have no indication of where the Kennedy-press interview occurred (although the Star did mention that the "oh murder" account became popular around "the lodging house"). Kennedy might have claimed that she was detained in the court by the police, but in light of the forgoing, it is far more likely that this was yet another detail stolen from Sarah Lewis's account. Even the Star makes clear that "she states" as much. It was clearly not something they ascertained to be true.

    And besides Prater who else do you suppose told them of it?
    Sarah Lewis, obviously.

    By the 14th November, the Star would have known about, and reported, Lewis' inquest evidence. The fact that Lewis did not communicate with the Star (or ostensibly any other newspaper) directly is neither here nor there.

    They say it was heard by “several dwellers in the court”.
    No, they don't.

    Please read the extract properly: "as said to have been heard by several dwellers in the court."

    "As said"...in other words, uncorroborated second-hand hearsay (or worse) which probably had no direct communication with the Star's reporters.

    And who do you think are the ‘others’ whose evidence suggested to the Star that the murder happened after 3 am?
    The only candidates are Lewis and Hutchinson, before they discovered that the latter had been "discredited" (which they did discover shortly thereafter and report the following day - the 15th).

    It is fairly clear they were referring to Kennedy.

    Kennedy exonerated.
    It is completely clear that they weren't.

    Kennedy unexonerated.

    But thanks for playing.

    But that same sketch presents someone of very unmilitary appearance.
    No it doesn't.

    Hi Jon,

    "The more reliable of the two" ...would you like to expand on that?
    Certainly. There were two newspaper sketches of the Hutchinson/Astrakhan/Kelly scene, and one is clearly more faithful to the account than the other. The weaker one is more crudely drawn and features various "extras" in the background, including a girl with what appears to be a mud-smeared or chocolate-smeared face. Most odd.

    First he claimed he saw no-one and nothing suspicious. Then, four days later, he claimed he served a man & woman, who then stood about in the street.
    The police concluded that Packer is not a reliable witness.
    Yep, just like Hutchinson, who gave polar opposite details when communicating with police and press. For all his obvious nonsense, Packer was at least proven to have been where he said he was, and for the reasons he provided, quite unlike Hutchinson. If you read the Star's report of the 15th November, you'll notice that Hutchinson and Packer are lumped into the same category under the headline: "Worthless stories lead the police on false scents."

    Violenia was sussed out under questioning:
    "Subsequently, cross-examination so discredited Violenia's evidence that it was wholly distrusted by the police, and Pizer was set at liberty".
    Yep, again just like Hutchinson whose account suffered a "very reduced importance" in light of "later investigations". Thanks for providing that quote, though. Violenia was considered by the police to have lied about being present at a crime scene around the time that the crime in question was committed, and yet he was "set at liberty". Very interesting. I'll save that quote for future debates when they inevitably arise.

    And, I still need to know about your reliable press source.
    But you ought really to know all about it, because I explained it in patient detail on many threads. If you need a refresher, I suggest you consult the Hutchinson threads.

    Meanwhile, my sincere apologies to Droy and his much welcomed attempt to steer the discussion back on track!

    All the best,
    Ben
    Last edited by Ben; 02-18-2013, 05:37 PM.

    Comment


    • Hi DRoy,

      The sun set at 4.19 pm on November 8th and rose at around 7.10 am on November 9th.

      As the gas-lamp was right opposite the door to Room 13, it would have been interesting to know if the lamplighter had seen or heard MJK prior to her morning encounter with Mrs Maxwell.

      Regards,

      Simon
      Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

      Comment


      • Simon,

        Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
        Hi DRoy,

        The sun set at 4.19 pm on November 8th and rose at around 7.10 am on November 9th.

        As the gas-lamp was right opposite the door to Room 13, it would have been interesting to know if the lamplighter had seen or heard MJK prior to her morning encounter with Mrs Maxwell.
        I guess it would depend how many lamps each lamplighter would be responsible for lighting and distinguishing. Were all lamps lit before dark and then distinguished after sunrise?

        Cheers
        DRoy

        Comment


        • Packer was at least proven to have been where he said he was, and for the reasons he provided, quite unlike Hutchinson.
          Lack of proof that he was where he said he was does not constitute proof that he wasn't though, does it?
          I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

          Comment


          • Hi DRoy,

            "Were all lamps lit before dark and then distinguished after sunrise?"

            Yes. Apparently it was a procedure which went on into the 1950s.

            Click image for larger version

Name:	LIFE MAGAZINE 11 FEB 1952 LAMPLIGHTERS.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	30.0 KB
ID:	664805

            Regards,

            Simon
            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

            Comment


            • Indeed not, Bridewell.

              I should make clear that I'm not suggesting he wasn't there (I believe Lewis' evidence indicates very strongly that he was). I'm saying simply that it isn't proven, unlike in Packer's case, where it is.

              All the best,
              Ben

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ben View Post
                Indeed not, Bridewell.

                I should make clear that I'm not suggesting he wasn't there (I believe Lewis' evidence indicates very strongly that he was). I'm saying simply that it isn't proven, unlike in Packer's case, where it is.

                All the best,
                Ben
                Misunderstood the point you were making, Ben. Apologies for that.
                I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                Comment


                • Simon,

                  Thanks for that, fascinating stuff!

                  So only if we accept Caroline Maxwell's story would the lamplighter possibly be a witness to anything. I'm leaning towards Maxwell being mistaken as to who she thought MJK was. A case of mistaken identity IMHO.

                  Cheers
                  DRoy

                  Comment


                  • A friend indeed...

                    Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                    Hi DRoy,

                    "Were all lamps lit before dark and then distinguished after sunrise?"

                    Yes. Apparently it was a procedure which went on into the 1950s.

                    [ATTACH]15104[/ATTACH]

                    Regards,

                    Simon
                    Good find sir, thanks for this. I find it ironic that the lamplighter is named Fairclough, our friend for other reasons...


                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • Hi DRoy,

                      Why should Mrs Maxwell have been confused about the time, day or identity of MJK?

                      She gave her first witness statement to the cops just a few hours after her encounter, on the afternoon/evening of Friday 9th November.

                      Regards,

                      Simon
                      Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                        Hi DRoy,

                        Why should Mrs Maxwell have been confused about the time, day or identity of MJK?

                        She gave her first witness statement to the cops just a few hours after her encounter, on the afternoon/evening of Friday 9th November.

                        Regards,

                        Simon
                        Hi Simon!

                        The parameters you mention absolve Maxwell from a mistaken time or day only - for no matter how close in time the meeting was, Maxwell may still have mistaken the identity! Which is what I think the police believed she did.

                        All the best,
                        Fisherman
                        Last edited by Fisherman; 02-18-2013, 07:50 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Hi Simon,

                          Why should Mrs Maxwell have been confused about the time, day or identity of MJK?

                          She gave her first witness statement to the cops just a few hours after her encounter, on the afternoon/evening of Friday 9th November.
                          I don't think she was confused about the time or day but I do believe that the person she knew as Mary was not actually the MJK. In her inquest testimony she only uses the name Mary, not Mary Jane or Mary Kelly, etc. She doesn't say where she lived either, just that she saw Mary outside the court. Surely it could have been a Mary who lived in the vicinity but not necessarily the same Mary of 13 Miller's Court.

                          Cheers
                          DRoy

                          Comment


                          • Hi Fisherman,

                            Okay.

                            So why was Mrs Maxwell subpoenaed to appear at the inquest?

                            Regards,

                            Simon
                            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                            Comment


                            • You beat me to it Fisherman!

                              DRoy

                              Comment


                              • Simon,

                                So why was Mrs Maxwell subpoenaed to appear at the inquest?
                                Good question. Her testimony disputed everyone else's. What value was her testimony? It seems the Coroner didn't believe her, the doctor's evidence differed, and every other witness last saw MJK alive hours and hours earlier. Would or could her testimony sway the juror's opinion in any way at all? Obviously not. So what was the value in having her there? Good question.

                                Cheers
                                DRoy

                                Comment

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