A Theory -The access to Mary Kelly

[Wickerman]

As to the sleeping position, its the fact that she is on the far right of the bed while doing so that makes me suggest she was expecting someone to slip in behind her.

Hi Michael.

In the photo the bed is not all that wide.
The missus tells me that roughly scaling the body with the bed she swears the bed is either a single (36" w) or a three-quarter (48" w), but no larger.
So, if we think in terms of "far right side", we give the impression of a large bed, but it was actually quite narrow.
If two could fit on that bed to sleep, they could hardly move a muscle.
But then, if the bed was mainly used for 'income', who would grumble?

Regards, Jon S.

[Sally]

In the photo the bed is not all that wide.
The missus tells me that roughly scaling the body with the bed she swears the bed is either a single (36" w) or a three-quarter (48" w), but no larger.
So, if we think in terms of "far right side", we give the impression of a large bed, but it was actually quite narrow.
If two could fit on that bed to sleep, they could hardly move a muscle.
But then, if the bed was mainly used for 'income', who would grumble?

Although, we know that two did fit on that bed to sleep, because Kelly shared that bed with Barnett for several months before her death

(unless Barnett took the couch... )

Bed sharing was very common in the past for the poorer classes - having a bed at all was something of a luxury in some cases. Kelly wasn't that badly off, comparatively.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To address a point you made Jon, in fact, we have no reference anywhere that suggests Mary Kelly ever used room 13 for "clients". We know she moved into the room with Barnett, although the room was put in Marys name, and we know Barnett stated that he objected to her "working the streets". Barnett had only been gone 8 days, and he returned each day, excluding her last, with some money for her if he could. We know she was in arrears to the tune of approximately 2 1/2 weeks rent, indicating she had not been working the streets or paying her debts. Not even with some of the money Barnett gave her after leaving.

In short, the records indicate that Mary did not convert her room for usage as a working boudoir.

Its important that we view anyone that Mary might have brought near that room from Oct 31st until Nov the 8th as potentially a friend of Marys. Including Blotchy.

Best regards

[Bridewell]

Hi Michael,

Just looking again at the notion of Kelly having answered the door to a visitor in the small hours and said/called "Oh Murder!". As we are led to believe (via Barnett) that she had been to Paris with a 'gentleman', and as she alluded to herself (allegedly) as "Marie Jeanette", should we consider the possibility that, if the words were indeed Kelly's, what she actually said was, "Oh merde!"? It would fit a woman with a love of all things French (except Paris).

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Just looking again at the notion of Kelly having answered the door to a visitor in the small hours and said/called "Oh Murder!". As we are led to believe (via Barnett) that she had been to Paris with a 'gentleman', and as she alluded to herself (allegedly) as "Marie Jeanette", should we consider the possibility that, if the words were indeed Kelly's, what she actually said was, "Oh merde!"? It would fit a woman with a love of all things French (except Paris).

I believe that is the first time I have read that particular idea Bridewell, and I have to say its as likely as my scenario and the overall intention of the utterance remains the same essentially. Always great to see an interesting new perspective on such a stagnant subject.

She is woken from a deep, booze induced sleep. Been there . I can imagine the joy of finding someone at the door who wants in, but I can also imagine letting someone in who I know well. Thats why the "oh-merde(r)"...

When I opened the thread it was to see if I am missing something integral to the answer...really, the pivotal issue as I see it is how the murderer accesses that room. I didnt go down the "which hand did he use" here because I think we need to look at everything leading up to a killing and see if the evidence does actually tilt in favor of a solution.

I would say that if people were to question the inclusion of Kelly based on the "killer knew victim" factor, then the location, Marys state of dress, and the choice of her as a victim would cumulatively point away from the Ripper.

Or more specifically, the man who killed random middle aged street prostitutes in late August and Early September so he could mutilate their bodies and extract and take abdominal organs.

All the best BW

[Wickerman]

Although, we know that two did fit on that bed to sleep, because Kelly shared that bed with Barnett for several months before her death

(unless Barnett took the couch... )

Indeed they did, but quite often tenants slept on the floor too. When Kelly had other women over maybe thats where they slept.

I know nuthin about no couch, maybe the killer burnt that too..

Bed sharing was very common in the past for the poorer classes - having a bed at all was something of a luxury in some cases. Kelly wasn't that badly off, comparatively.

Fishman writes about these types of tenancies, quite often they did not even come with furniture never mind a bed, everyone slept on the floor.

McCarthy provided beds......one wonders why?


Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hi again,

To address a point you made Jon, in fact, we have no reference anywhere that suggests Mary Kelly ever used room 13 for "clients".

Quite right Michael, in fairness though we cannot expect any records since Barnett had only just moved out. Kelly had not had time to set anything up.
Apparently Mrs Prater new of Kelly's reputation.

Remember the words of Mrs Prater:

It was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased. ........................Kelly was, she admitted, one of her own class, and she made no secret of her way of gaining a livelihood.

We might wonder how come Prater knew of Kelly's reputation, did she know her before Kelly moved in?
Or, in those 10? days since Barnett had moved out, had Kelly been bringing men back frequently enough for Prater to notice what was going on?

Its important that we view anyone that Mary might have brought near that room from Oct 31st until Nov the 8th as potentially a friend of Marys. Including Blotchy.

Its a line of inquiry that cannot be verifiable though, we may choose to think any clients she had were all friends but the chances are just as easily 50/50 that not all of them were.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Indeed they did, but quite often tenants slept on the floor too. When Kelly had other women over maybe thats where they slept.

I know nuthin about no couch, maybe the killer burnt that too..




Fishman writes about these types of tenancies, quite often they did not even come with furniture never mind a bed, everyone slept on the floor.

McCarthy provided beds......one wonders why?


Regards, Jon S.

Not just a bed, didn't Kelly have a bed roll as well -- one that was already rolled up? Or perhaps had not been used that night -- depending upon when she was killed?

Just a thought, what DOES her having a bed roll in the room indicate?

If the rooms were very sparsely furnished and this poor woman who can't pay her rent has not just a bed, but a bed roll as well.

In her line of work, it would seem guests were likely to share the bed briefly with her.

Doesn't the bedroll perhaps suggest she often had overnight guests?

Might it also suggest that she and Barnett did not sleep in the bed together?

curious

[Bridewell]

Doesn't the bedroll perhaps suggest she often had overnight guests?

Sub-letting to other women perhaps?

[Sally]

Hi Curious

Doesn't the bedroll perhaps suggest she often had overnight guests?

Is the bedroll likely to have belonged to her and/or Barnett? Perhaps more likely it belonged to McCarthy and was simply in the room when they took it up. It is quite plausible that more than two people could have lived in the room by the standards of the day - perhaps previous tenants had included families?

The presence of the bedroll certainly made it easier for Kelly to have overnight guests. Perhaps a bit of subletting was going on - more plausible perhaps than Barnett's claim that she let other women sleep in the room out of the goodness of her heart.

Might it also suggest that she and Barnett did not sleep in the bed together?

I'd have thought not - they were lovers, after all.

[Michael W Richards]

Quite right Michael, in fairness though we cannot expect any records since Barnett had only just moved out. Kelly had not had time to set anything up.
Apparently Mrs Prater new of Kelly's reputation.

Remember the words of Mrs Prater:

It was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased. ........................Kelly was, she admitted, one of her own class, and she made no secret of her way of gaining a livelihood.

We might wonder how come Prater knew of Kelly's reputation, did she know her before Kelly moved in?
Or, in those 10? days since Barnett had moved out, had Kelly been bringing men back frequently enough for Prater to notice what was going on?



Its a line of inquiry that cannot be verifiable though, we may choose to think any clients she had were all friends but the chances are just as easily 50/50 that not all of them were.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

I think we need to review the records and see if Mary was ever seen bringing anyone other than Barnett to her room after he left at the end of Oct. The ONLY sighting on record is her with Blotchy Face. Therefore, we can safely surmise that she didnt "hang her shingle" after Joe left.

As to the nature of the relationship between her and Blotchy, I think we can safely assume it was friendly, I cant imagine any client paying for sex and then being serenaded for over an hour first.

There are logically deduced answers, they may not be accurate, but I prefer logic to an emotional or even intellectual surmising.

Mary wasnt working regularly, hence the arrears, we have no record of anyone but Blotchy being seen entering her room with her after Joe left, and we know that Maria remained in Marys room for a few days after Joe left. So, the window for her to have used the room for solicitation is really quite small, and no evidence exists to warrant a conclusion that she used the room for sex for sale.

All the best Jon

[Wickerman]

As to the nature of the relationship between her and Blotchy, I think we can safely assume it was friendly, I cant imagine any client paying for sex and then being serenaded for over an hour first.

Michael, although Cox claimed that Mary was still singing at 1:00 am when she returned, we have no indication Blotchy was still in the room - that's an assumption that has no support.
Question 1 - why would Blotchy stay so long to be serenaded?
Question 2 - why would Mary keep the same client for an hour, twice as long as is necessary, when she is short of money?

The answer to both questions could be, Blotchy left before Cox returned.
He simply was not there.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, although Cox claimed that Mary was still singing at 1:00 am when she returned, we have no indication Blotchy was still in the room - that's an assumption that has no support.
Question 1 - why would Blotchy stay so long to be serenaded?
Question 2 - why would Mary keep the same client for an hour, twice as long as is necessary, when she is short of money?

The answer to both questions could be, Blotchy left before Cox returned.
He simply was not there.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

To me, the idea that she would sing loud enough to be heard outside the room, while drunk, has everything to do with "while entertaining someone". If Blotchy didnt come to the room expecting sex, which is my position, then why not just sit and finish your ale while the lass sings away. By his description he sounds like the type that might enjoy being in the company of a young pretty woman.... even without any "transactions'.

And your second question Jon,..that should have led you to a similar conclusion to mine own, ....which is a pay for sex worker would not be allowed to sing that long for any client, nor likely would she intentionally prolong the "transaction" period when the name of that game was turnover.

I do believe Blotchy left Mary alive, and while she was still fully dressed, so by the records Im guessing between 1:10am and 1:30am. Ish.

Cheers Jon

[Wickerman]

I do believe Blotchy left Mary alive, and while she was still fully dressed, so by the records Im guessing between 1:10am and 1:30am. Ish.

Cheers Jon

So do I Michael, so do I.
Only I would have him out of there before Cox returned at 1:00 am, but as you say it could have been later if they were just friends.

My only caution on that point is what Prater said about Kelly's room being dark and quiet when she came indoors shortly after 1:00 am (1:20?). I'm thinking Kelly was either asleep and Blotchy had left, or she was back out again. Prater said the room was quiet, no moving about, no talking, no singing, and apparently though she couldn't swear to it, no light either - which means between 1:00-1:30 Kelly is either asleep alone, or the room was empty.

Cox admitted she could only tell Kelly had been drinking by her speech. It was not evident then by the way she walked.
As Cox walked behind Kelly up the passage if she had been sloshed, legless, or as Garry thinks, "blind drunk", surely she would have staggered a little as most people would, or maybe bouncing off the walls as she walked up the narrow passage.

So, heavily inebriated I don't think so, giggly maybe.

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Giggly perhaps?
A good description, and rather in line with Hutchinson's account, but that is taboo on Casebook , as it was all invented
Regards Richard.