conspiracys and police cover ups!

[spyglass]

Hi all,
This week we learnt of how the police and establishment are very capable of hiding truths in a quite disgusting and disturbing way, I refere to the Hillsborough disaster.

So to those who brush off conspiracy theorys with police involement at high levels, then rethink.
I would suggest that it was even more likely in the 1800's.

Just a thought.

[lynn cates]

Conspiracies R Us

Hello Spyglass. You have a point. Every case must stand or fall on its own merits--conspiracy can neither be accepted nor rejected on universal terms.

However, in general, the larger the number of conspirators, the more likely that the conspiracy will either fall apart or be revealed; the smaller the number, the less likely.

Out of curiosity, why would they be more likely in the 19th c?

Cheers.
LC

[andy1867]

probably...its unlikely the poor folk of Whitechapel in the 1880's had the wherewithal to pursue the powers that be as the Liverpool families have today...and its taken 23 years for them poor souls to get to the bottom of it.
Funny how a newspaper named "The Sun" played its part in both scenarios also.
South Yorkshire police have done a massive disservice to the people of Merseyside...and brought no small amount of shame on my own city ..

[Phil H]

I don't think the mid C19th mind set thought in such ways.

I'm not saying that duplicity and subterfuge did not exist or were not practiced, but as someone who remembers the watergate years all to clearly, I think that was a revelation. It was something new.

For one thing, and this is simply my own view, I don't think oligarchical societies need to act in such ways. There is already a broad concensus of view. by and large the ruling class could "censor" what reached the wider public in ways that did not require cover-ups or conspiracies. Edward, Prince of Wales' activities were widely commented on abroad, but scarcely mentioned in Britain. As late as 1936, the Palace and the press could create a media blackout on the relationship between the King and his mistress without a "conspiracy" - simply by agreement between players.

By 1888 the police had been embroiled in several scandals, but without a cover-up being put in place.

It was a simpler world than ours, since 1945.

Phil H

[spyglass]

Hi Lynn,
Just an impression I get from that period I guess...nothing more.

[Phil H]

probably...its unlikely the poor folk of Whitechapel in the 1880's had the wherewithal to pursue the powers that be as the Liverpool families have today...and its taken 23 years for them poor souls to get to the bottom of it.
Funny how a newspaper named "The Sun" played its part in both scenarios also.
South Yorkshire police have done a massive disservice to the people of Merseyside...and brought no small amount of shame on my own city ..

there is always a question, of course, applying variously to the vatican, the military or the police (though not, I think in 1888) as to which takes precedence - the authority of public bodies and institutions, or the individual. After all, from one point of view, the individual may have to rely on the organisation, so better to create an impression of infalliability.

Still, I think relevant, but more than beginning to crumble as the child abuse in the catholic church, and the organ retation policy in some hospitals in the Uk has demonstrated (to give but two examples).

Phil H

[lynn cates]

models

Hello Spyglass. Thanks.

I see. It is rather a reading of the "mentality" of the times?

Are you thinking in terms of:

1. 19th c people in general?

2. !9th c class structures?

3. 19th c authority structures?

Cheers.
LC

[spyglass]

Hi Lynn,
I guess I would go with both B and C.

[spyglass]

Sorry...I ment 2 and 3.

Regards.

[andy1867]

The mindset of the public at large in either circumstance can be swayed in either case be it 1880 or 1980...
In Whitechapel the unfortunates who lived there, the profession of the victims were probably dimly viewed at the time by the public and perhaps folk saw it as run of the mill that such violence was bound to occur in such a situation...it only needed a nudge in the right direction by a leading figure or institution and people would believe what they were wanted to believe.
Football and football fans were regarded with the same disdain in the 1980's...some football fans deserved to be viewed with disdain...admittedly....but ..I have travelled all over the country for many years watching football...or watching Sheffield Wednesday (it hasn't always been football)..and I can assure you that if I arrived at Old Trafford without a ticket..I would be treated very differently than if I was hanging around Wimbledon hoping to get a pass for the centre court...This is why so many people believed the scurrilous article in The Sun regarding Liverpool football fans

[lynn cates]

argument

Hello Spyglass. Thanks.

So, if I read you correctly, given the relatively rigid class structures of the later 19th c, in particular, the LVP, those in authority were more prone to conspire/cover up?

I wonder about the converse argument. "Given a more rigid class structure, conspiracies/cover ups would be less needed. The authorities were less answerable to public sentiment, compared to today, and merely decreed how it should be."?

Cheers.
LC

[spyglass]

Hi Lynn,
I guess both views are valid...and of course it would depend on what they were actually covering up.
I did find it intresting about Hillsborough the fact so many police officers changed or were made to change their statements.

Regards.

[jason_c]

The "cover-up" (and I have doubts how far the Hillsborough cover-up went) was to save the skins of the police themselves, both serving and retired. Any people comparing Hillsborough to the Ripper case should bear this in mind.

[spyglass]

Hi Jason C,
I was'nt comparing the two cases, I was comparing the police and establishment of both era's, pointing out that both are and possibly were capable of cover up's from the top downwards, and that conspiracy 's do exist.
Regards.

[Phil H]

Please define "conspiracy".

Phil H