A Whip and a Prod

[Michael W Richards]

I acknowledged the point you made about my posting a snippet about a post ripper connection of individuals then speaking to a prior connection, as I indicated that probably should be credited to a post by Debra here I believe. Perhaps Im mistaken. The Schwartz in the later storyline however is almost certainly the same.

The quotes I posted from Maria don't include the one you used. This was one...

"

In British censuses there's a

Polish

Israel Schwartz frequently changing addresses, located at 22 Samuel Street (a couple hundred yards from the murder site) at the date of the 1891 census with a wife and 2 kids,

non English speaking

. There's a marriage certificate for an Israel Schwartz in 1893 (which is too late, since he already was married in 1888, unless he re-married in 1893), and a naturalization for an Austrian (=Hungarian) Israel Schwartz in 1911. The anarchist Schwartz I'm frequently encountering in French police reports changes his first name often, but it's crystal clear it's the same guy, as the reports are from the same years (1902-1903) and he's frequenting the same clubs and fellow anarchists, participating in the exact same meetings. There are promising finds in English censuses for Schwartzes under the different first names this anarchist orator uses, but it's still a mess and needs to be sorted out."

These points are obviously tangential on this thread anyway, but the attempts at characterizing the club and its attendees at the time of the murders as non-militant aren't accurate and detrimental to any real search for valid answers.

The club catered to Socialists that Fall of 1888 and within that movement, the anarchists and activists. Police gave that description of them when interviewed at the time of the murders.

[DJA]

>> ...its a fact that some of the men, like Wess, that were a part of that club and the location had spent time in Paris in previous years ...... connected to William Wess in 1902-1905<<

How is nearly two decades later, previous to 1888?

I've selected part of "mariab"s post and added a comma after Wess.
She did not complete that "research".
She did not state that Wess was in France.There is no record of him ever being there.
She did not state that Wess was with Schwartz in Paris.
It is highly unlikely the Schwartz she mentions is our Berner Street's Israel Schwartz,as she does not mention his first name and is vague on his nationality.

Rather like researching Mary Kelly and finding a Kelly in Scotland.


"I've got some interesting information pertaining to a Jewish/Polish/Hungarian anarchist named Schwartz, connected to William Wess, in 1902-1905. The Schwartz connection requires additional research."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

One more, just for jolly.

Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building.

Were there any other barely discernible objects down near the gate - a costermonger's barrow, for example?
Perhaps they missed this - it was only 7' long by 3' wide by 3' tall.
Also, did they see any other mammals - a pony, for example?

In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard.

How odd that everyone managed to run out into the yard, when something was blocking the door.

[Coroner] What did you do with the pony?
[Diemschutz] I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

Perhaps he took himself for a walk?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Still more.

In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder. In the meantime, the commotion about the murder drew people, and the street that had been asleep began to become lively.

So that 10 minutes plus all other prior activities, plus the return to #40 with Lamb and Collins, would takes us to about 1:15, and Collins has not quite left for Blackwell's surgery.
That cannot be right.
If we ignore the imaginary 15 minutes (between when they know the murder took place, and when Louis supposedly arrives), however, the time is just on 1:00.
Then:

The doctor arrived ten minutes later along with a lot of policemen.

Taking us to 1:10 (not 1:16, or any other time).
1:16 is when Blackwell starts dictating notes.

Louis Diemschutz did not arrive home, at 1 am.
By that time, PCs Lamb and Collins, and many people from the club, were already in the yard.
One of these people is Fanny Mortimer, who had heard the cries for police and the noise of a rapidly growing crowd, several minutes before 1 am, from inside her residence at #36. She is not on her doorstep, from 12:50-1:00, as some people like to claim, nor does she hear a pony and cart - the reporter who stated this was also under Louis' verbal influence.
Fanny 'calibrates' her stay outside, to 1 am, after talking to Louis the next day, which is when she 'learns' about the grapes, and the Ripper's miraculous escape from the yard.

During the examination of the members of the club, the Police Sergeant wanted to show, through his coarse behavior, that he was also somebody, therefore one of the members took him over to Parson's picture, which was nailed to the wall and explained to him that this is was Parsons the anarchist, who had been murdered in Chicago and asked him if he wanted to see the others, [if so] he could go upstairs to see [them]. Everyone laughed, and the poor policeman bit his lips.

It's almost as though they were Anarchists.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A few more points.

The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one. That evening there was a discussion in the club: Should a Jew be a Socialist? The hall was packed and the discussion was very lively. The debate went on until approximately eleven o’clock. At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian.

Given that a belief in Socialist principles was a condition of IWMES membership, the question 'should Jew be a Socialist', would seem to be a redundant one, for most of the audience in attendance that evening.
Perhaps the question was in contrast to 'should a Jew be an Anarchist'?

Louis after striking a match and seeing a woman:

From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm.

What does everyone else know at that point?
This section follows, immediately on:

Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

How does Gilyarovsky (probably Isaac Kozebrodsky) know so much, so soon?

Where was Diemschutz in this scene?
Evidently he went in to see his wife (this time through the side door), after informing his comrades!
Apparently he was already aware that Sarah was okay.
Who knew?

One can also not accept the opinions of our little Jews who began with the first murder to assert that God was doing this to punish the Socialists, because they gorged themselves on Yom Kippur. Unfortunately for them, the second murder, even more gruesome than the first, occurred near the Duke Place Synagogue, where Dr. Adler gives his vacuous sermons.

It is 'obvious' from all the bleeding-heart comments, that Arbeter Fraint is as devastated by the second murder, as much as the first, and that they had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The following quotes are copied from a thread begun by lynn cates - Arbeter Fraint's Take - regarding an article in the Oct 5, 1888 'double event' edition.

Not long ago, the blood of the slaughtered women dried up from the Whitechapel streets, and once again the cold stones of this neighborhood were warmed by the fresh blood of two other women sacrificed by the hand of an unnatural person. These two unfortunate women were cut up in the same way as the first four.
What interests us most about the latest double murder is that the first of them occurred near the door of our club and that many of us saw the still half-warm body of the unfortunate woman. Here we will give an account of everything that we know about the double murder and mainly about the first one, which was the closest one to us.
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

So Arbeter Fraint seems to have a firm idea on the current tally of Ripper victims.
Further down:

All doubt also disappears that there must be more than one murderer, otherwise they would not be mad men and would have to have a reason for these murders.

So there cannot be more than one murderer, as this would mean the men would not be mad, and furthermore have a reason for the murders.
The author does not state why this could not be case - only that it is.
I find this statement quite fascinating, especially when contrasted to the famous message:

The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing

Which could be interpreted as having this exact opposite meaning:

There are multiple murderers, they are Jewish men, and they won't get away with it

Was the author of the chalked message, a whistleblower?

Now consider the time given for the murder; 12:45

At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body.

So Louis was supposedly the first to notice the body, at 1 am, but the author has just prior to this, stated that the murder occurred about 12:45.
No explanation is given for how the 15 minute period between murder and discovery, is known.
It seems almost arbitrary to state the the murder occurred at 12:45, and therefore hints that the author knows more than he is letting on.
Also note that there is no mention of the incident involving Israel Schwartz, so who said anything about a quarter to one o'clock?

His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasn’t able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.

So apparently the pony shied to the right, otherwise Diemschutz would not have been able reach the body with his whip.
Consider that the passageway was 300cm wide, and the cart about 100cm wide.
That means there is 100cm either side of the cart, if it travels right down the center of the lane.
The body was lying obliquely to the club wall - see Fisherman's dissertation
If the pony shies to the right, and manages not to pull the cart over the vicitim, there is no room to jump down next to the victim, without jumping onto the victim, the victim's bonnet, or both.
This means jumping down on the side furthest from body - and yet Diemschutz is also quoted as stating that when he jumps down, he is right by the body.
The other alternative is that the cart stopped some way past the body, as Diemschutz stated, at the inquest.
In this case, the whip is unlikely to be long enough to reach the body.

Also note; no subsequent movement of the cart - the sequence is; strike match > see woman > jump off cart > enter club via back door

So is 'the back door' a reference to the side door, or the actual back door?
Given that Gilyarovsky first runs into the printing shop, I would suggest that 'back door' means just that.
According to Louis' wife Sarah, Louis first enters and gives the alert via the side door.
Surely Louis would have first looked for his wife, before seeking out his comrades?

In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

10 minutes to find a policeman, even though they were a minute's walk from Commercial Road?
How hard were they really trying?

The doctor arrived ten minutes later along with a lot of policemen. The doctor began to examine the body, which was still warm. He lifted the head, which a policeman illuminated with his night lantern, and a horrific picture appeared before his eyes. The pale face was green, the eyes tightly closed, the back hair disheveled, the neck sliced wide-open [and] bathed in blood. In one hand, the murdered woman held a bunch of grapes and in the other a box of candies. She was dressed in black: poor but clean. She wore a red flower on her breast. The doctor continued to examine her and found no other wounds other than the broad gash on her neck.

How could she have been killed and carried from the back yard, if she were still holding something in each hand?
Perhaps that is what we are supposed to think.

[Regular] police and secret police arrived en masse. Everyone who had been in the club was examined, their hands and their clothing inspected, to see if there were blood stains. Everyone’s names and addresses were taken, and everyone was questioned as to whether they had seen anything unusual. During these examinations the police inspector received a telegram [saying] that in Meyter Square near Duke Street Oldgate, another woman had been murdered. This one had been cut into pieces just like the murdered Annie Chapman. Once again there was a commotion among the policemen and people began to run—out of the club, into the club, out into the yard, back from the yard. It went on like this until 4 [o’clock] in the morning. They searched everywhere; they looked for the murderer in all the neighbors’ houses, in the editor’s office, in every corner, under the tables, on the tables and in every pocket.

Did they check the cart?
He might have been hiding there, under a tarpaulin.

[drstrange169]

>> ...its a fact that some of the men, like Wess, that were a part of that club and the location had spent time in Paris in previous years ...... connected to William Wess in 1902-1905<<

How is nearly two decades later, previous to 1888?

[drstrange169]

>>The cross-over from benign Socialist to more active members for change was already taking place.<<

Which was the point I was making.

[DJA]

This is the research that has been referred to.

It was not finalized and is after 1888.

DJA.

• mariab
  Superintendent
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
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#1
the Jewish anarchists of Whitechapel spied by the French secret police

10-22-2011, 08:06 PM




Hello all.
I've just finished going through the French Secret Police reports on the Whitechapel Jewish anarchists having survived in Paris (at the Archives Nationales and at the Archives of the Paris Police Museum), and I've got some interesting information pertaining to a Jewish/Polish/Hungarian anarchist named Schwartz, connected to William Wess in 1902-1905. The Schwartz connection requires additional research and will be discussed in a future publication, but here is a representative sample of a French spy report from May 1903:

Paris, 22 May 1903

from London

The Anarchist Jewish Federation:

The Anarchist Jewish Federation definitely operates under the name “The worker's friend“ in Great Britain and in Paris.
Communications pertaining to this group are obligatorily addressed to R. ROCKER and G. DAVID, who both reside at Nr. 58, Dunsten Houses, Stepney Green, East London.
The origins of this group is a weekly newspaper called “The worker's friend“, published in Hebrew.
Pertaining to the Jewish anarchists I'm drawing attention to a handwritten poster hanging in the Russian library at Church Street, conceived as such: “All Jewish revolutionaries can come to Butles Street, Spitalfields, and eat for free.“
In the library in question there has also been a new message board erected in favor of the Russian strikers.

The original document will be posted when I get the photo cleaned up.

Last edited by mariab; 10-22-2011, 08:09 PM.
Best regards,
Maria

[Michael W Richards]

In fact you re-posted no research by "mariab".

You have a habit of alluding to complete nonsense that does not exist.

Your completely dishonest use of Dr Sarah J Young's work is a patent example.

I posted a snippet of Dr Young' own words, so hardly a disservice or dishonest. And the research by maria was posted here. The one point you may have is that the Wess/Schwartz connection, pre Ripper, should I believe be attributed to Debra, not mariab.

It appears that you suggest people post nonsense when you are ill informed about the topic, maybe it would be more honest of you to say "duh...I didn't known that", instead of trying to make someone else seem like the incorrect one. If actually being honest, or accurate, is something you do aspire to be, that is. If not...have at it...these kinds of boards are just the type of venue cowards like you and Fish like trolling on.

[DJA]

In fact you re-posted no research by "mariab".

You have a habit of alluding to complete nonsense that does not exist.

Your completely dishonest use of Dr Sarah J Young's work is a patent example.

[Michael W Richards]

Oh yeah...and broomsticks of course can indeed be called clubs when used accordingly.

[Michael W Richards]

Wess had not spent prior time in Paris.Not sure he ever visited.
Have no idea who you are referring to.
Just more of your imaginary world.

Broomsticks are not clubs.

Woolf Wess was indeed in Paris a few years prior, where he met Schwartz...shown in the research by mariab that I already re-posted here. Hey, I don't mind educating people that don't know some details, just don't like doing that for self designated know-it-alls so much. Motto...ignorance is acceptable in terms of acquired knowledge, not in general discourse as a guideline.

[DJA]

Wess had not spent prior time in Paris.Not sure he ever visited.
Have no idea who you are referring to.
Just more of your imaginary world.

Broomsticks are not clubs.

[Michael W Richards]

Nonetheless,more Rocky and Bullwinkle than Boris and Natasha

Flying squirrels aside, its a fact that some of the men, like Wess, that were a part of that club and the location had spent time in Paris in previous years, where we know more active factions planned and plotted subversive activities... like strikes. Self rule factions also met there to plan activities.

AND...again...some of these men were arrested within 6 months for hitting coppers with clubs...flying squirrels they weren't.