Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For the third time there was no blood spray in the yard.
She was strangled.
Phillips autopsy of her heart was consistent with strangulation.
Tally being two out of two for strangulation.

I'll give you two out of four for strangulation.
Bruising to the neck gets you to three, and a swollen tongue gets you to four

BS man,who was possibly a soldier named Carter,seems to have eaten the 8 oz of grapes he purchased from Packer.
There were none in her stomach when autopsied.

Diemschutz said he saw grapes in her right hand, when it was unclenched by a doctor.
No one else saw grapes!
Diemschutz' memory is extrapolating from the point that she did have grapes in her hand, shortly before her death.
But his memory is "playing tricks", and the anomaly of only Diemschutz seeing grapes in her dead hand, should have been recognized and questioned.

[DJA]

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

[Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth? - Yes.
[Coroner] The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
[Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else? - I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

NB."an unusual flow of blood"

[DJA]

Simpler.
However, now Liz and Jack are front-to-front (rather than front-to-back). This makes it harder for Jack, as Liz still retains her peripheral vision and dexterity.
It also doesn't explain the "grapes issue".

Can you provide some links or background to back up the strangulation claim?
I haven' come across this yet, as far as I recall.

For the third time there was no blood spray in the yard.
She was strangled.
Phillips autopsy of her heart was consistent with strangulation.
Tally being two out of two for strangulation.

BS man,who was possibly a soldier named Carter,seems to have eaten the 8 oz of grapes he purchased from Packer.
There were none in her stomach/small intestines when autopsied.

[DJA]

Matthew Packer - Jack the Ripper Wiki

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Simpler.
However, now Liz and Jack are front-to-front (rather than front-to-back). This makes it harder for Jack, as Liz still retains her peripheral vision and dexterity.
It also doesn't explain the "grapes issue".

Can you provide some links or background to back up the strangulation claim?
I haven' come across this yet, as far as I recall.

[DJA]

Jack offered Stride a tissue containing cachous.
She has taken it out of his palm with a left forefinger and thumb.
He has immediately moved to strangle her and take her to ground.
There is a medical term for the cachous remaining.
She was dead when he cut her throat.There was no blood spray.

Ripperologists only see cachous as breath fresheners.
They were astringent medicine for her bottom lip.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Highly recommend reading the Inquest via the link previously supplied in red.

If you read anything that says Stride had grapes in one hand,take it with big mobs of salt.

She was strangled to death.
This is born out by Phillips' examination of her heart.Just take my word for it.Casebookers are not much chop when it comes to medical detail.
Like the other C5,there was no arterial spray.Her heart had stopped beating.

Beware of CUB products as they are produced for Poms and Seppos,not Aussies.
You could do worse ..... XXXX,yeck!

I'm making my way through it.
There seems to be no sign of grapes. Only Diemschutz ever mentions grapes. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the mention of grapes in her right hand, was a lie.
There may have been grapes at some point, but presumably the pony was quite hungry after a long days work, and ate the lot.
It seems to me that both the scarf and shoulder bruising are highly significant factors in the murder.
How did JtR manage to get behind her though, so he could tighten the scarf and grab her shoulders, before pulling her backwards?
There must have been a brief period when she dropped her attention away from Jack, and onto something in front of her.
But what? The pony fits the bill perfectly.

Also noted was the large number of people in the lane;

Constable Henry Lamb: On my arrival there were about thirty people in the yard, and others followed me in. No one was nearer than a yard to the body. As I was examining the deceased the crowd gathered round, but I begged them to keep back, otherwise they might have their clothes soiled with blood, and thus get into trouble.

So pony and cart were well away by this stage, no doubt thanks to Diemschutz thoughtfully <strike>driving it into</strike> leaving it in the stabling area.

There was no arterial spray on the wall, or any blood around the body (save for the stream from the neck, of course).
This suggests the throat slash occurred away from the position of death.

Dr. Phillips: It was possible for the woman to draw up her legs after the wound, but she could not have turned over.

This was the movement that caused the pony to shy to the left.

My pony decoy theory clears up the ambiguity of when the pony and cart reaches its final location on the night - right after Diemschutz witnesses or commits the murder.
It also explains why Diemschutz had so much to say about the dead woman's appearance - he interacted with her before her death.
It also explains the missing grapes - Liz was given them and encouraged to feed them to the pony (none were left in her hand - Diemschutz made an error here).
Finally, it explains the shying movement of the pony - it is reacting to Elizabeth's final motion.

[DJA]

Good advice from Dr Shoe of Shoe Lane.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Beware of CUB products as they are produced for Poms and Seppos,not Aussies.

We don't drink them out of shoes either!

[DJA]

Also, there's the whole Schwartz Vs Fanny in the doorway, neither of whom were at inquest.

Interesting points.
Thought the following might be handy.
The closed for the night bottleshop whose doorway Pipeman emerged from,on the corner.
Later taken over by a suspect's brother.


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Berner Fairclough cnr JTR.jpg

From Fanny's to the chandlers shop.

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Berner Fairclough Stride JTR.jpg

Some guy with Stride's bottom lip.Requires cachous to stop bleeding.

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The baker's shop was a block "up" Berner Street at the corner of Boyd Street.Think it was 70 Berner Street.

[DJA]

Highly recommend reading the Inquest via the link previously supplied in red.

If you read anything that says Stride had grapes in one hand,take it with big mobs of salt.

She was strangled to death.
This is born out by Phillips' examination of her heart.Just take my word for it.Casebookers are not much chop when it comes to medical detail.
Like the other C5,there was no arterial spray.Her heart had stopped beating.

Beware of CUB products as they are produced for Poms and Seppos,not Aussies.
You could do worse ..... XXXX,yeck!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Have you thought about moving this to the creative writing board?

Are you implying the heat is getting the better of me?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I will comment on a few of the remarks by drstrange169. Not too well though. Outside the air is smokey and the sun is pink, but the similarity with Whitechapel in 1888 ends there. Currently 45C/113F. No AC in this room so I'm feeling a little light-headed!


Comparing her dress to Annie Chapman's ("Detective Diemschutz"), counts as a detailed observation.
Witnessing grapes in one clenched/unclenched hand - something the police do not seem to have noticed - counts as a detailed observation.
"I fancy she was of light complexion" - sounds about right for a Swede.
Managing these and other particular observations, in the dark of the lane and behind other people, is to me, suspicious.


This is a fascinating quote. Does he mean, he left it were it was, or alternatively that he moved it there?
If he means 'were it was' - how far is the club door from Stride's body? Too far to prod it with a whip handle!
If he means 'moved it there' - then we have 2 issues.

1. After lighting the match and making out the shape of a woman, he immediately rushes inside the club. Nothing gets moved.
2. Moving pony & cart could be described in this list of descending order of semantic clarity:
   1. I drove the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   2. I relocated the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   3. I moved the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   4. I left the pony and cart down the yard, just outside the door

#4 would be a very odd way of putting it, in fact its almost nonsensical. Yet Diemschutz uses this strange semantics, as well as omitting the precise chronology.
Whoever asked the question though, was "on the ball".
Another point to consider: I left it in the yard by itself
Does 'by itself' suggest that pony & cart were detached from each other? Again, when?



I used this page as a reference. No indication there of moving wares off cart before reentering the club.

When Diemschutz says;

... I sense surprise, or, he is overemphasising the point that he did not need to stop at the gates.
Why would he do that? Perhaps because he did indeed stop at the gates (or just prior), so that Stride's throat could be cut as she focused on the pony.


He has to keep her interested and get her into the right spot for the 1AM "incident".
She got a lot of kisses and edible gifts that evening, to prevent her from wondering off. Aside from a little bit of rough handling, it worked.


Arterial spray would be outwards, toward her hand and pony's face. Too bad no one thought to examine the pony.
Presumably the shock of having her throat cut would cause muscles to contract and therefore her hands clenched around cachous & grapes.


Quoting Dr Blackwell:

Her throat was cut just outside the gates and she was then pulled into the lane. It was all over in seconds.


To make him look more concerned and therefore innocent.

One more point. The (initial?) throat slash in the standing position may not have been enough to kill Liz, at least not quickly enough.
After helping to place her in the lane and remounting his cart, Diemschutz proceeded to the stabling area.
When passing Stride, her body twitched. She was clinging to life - just.
That movement, is what made the pony shy left.

Have you thought about moving this to the creative writing board?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I will comment on a few of the remarks by drstrange169. Not too well though. Outside the air is smokey and the sun is pink, but the similarity with Whitechapel in 1888 ends there. Currently 45C/113F. No AC in this room so I'm feeling a little light-headed!

I'm not sure where you got that information about a "detailed observation" from, but it is inaccurate.

Comparing her dress to Annie Chapman's ("Detective Diemschutz"), counts as a detailed observation.
Witnessing grapes in one clenched/unclenched hand - something the police do not seem to have noticed - counts as a detailed observation.
"I fancy she was of light complexion" - sounds about right for a Swede.
Managing these and other particular observations, in the dark of the lane and behind other people, is to me, suspicious.

This question was answered at the inquest,

"What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. "

This is a fascinating quote. Does he mean, he left it were it was, or alternatively that he moved it there?
If he means 'were it was' - how far is the club door from Stride's body? Too far to prod it with a whip handle!
If he means 'moved it there' - then we have 2 issues.

1. After lighting the match and making out the shape of a woman, he immediately rushes inside the club. Nothing gets moved.
2. Moving pony & cart could be described in this list of descending order of semantic clarity:
   1. I drove the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   2. I relocated the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   3. I moved the pony and cart down the yard, to just outside the door
   4. I left the pony and cart down the yard, just outside the door

#4 would be a very odd way of putting it, in fact its almost nonsensical. Yet Diemschutz uses this strange semantics, as well as omitting the precise chronology.
Whoever asked the question though, was "on the ball".
Another point to consider: I left it in the yard by itself
Does 'by itself' suggest that pony & cart were detached from each other? Again, when?

Other "duties" would have been moving his wares off the cart and into storage in the club. Your problem solved.

I'm not sure where you get the "10 minute period" from, I thought the body searches didn't happen until police re-enforcements arrived.

I used this page as a reference. No indication there of moving wares off cart before reentering the club.

When Diemschutz says;

I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open.

... I sense surprise, or, he is overemphasising the point that he did not need to stop at the gates.
Why would he do that? Perhaps because he did indeed stop at the gates (or just prior), so that Stride's throat could be cut as she focused on the pony.

The problem is, these two incidents happened at different ends of the street with different descriptions of the men involved. They also supposedly happened at the same time which is a problem.

He has to keep her interested and get her into the right spot for the 1AM "incident".
She got a lot of kisses and edible gifts that evening, to prevent her from wondering off. Aside from a little bit of rough handling, it worked.

In which case blood would be down the front of her and all over her hands, not to mention the problem of the cachous still being held on to.

Arterial spray would be outwards, toward her hand and pony's face. Too bad no one thought to examine the pony.
Presumably the shock of having her throat cut would cause muscles to contract and therefore her hands clenched around cachous & grapes.

Surely the street is a far less incriminating place for club members?

Quoting Dr Blackwell:

There was a check silk scarf round the neck, the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled tightly. I formed the opinion that the murderer first took hold of the silk scarf at the back of it and then pulled the deceased backwards.

Her throat was cut just outside the gates and she was then pulled into the lane. It was all over in seconds.

Deimshitz found Spooner and brought him back to the yard. We know Smith was patrolling the area and other policemen too, so why would it be a fake mission to run along Fairclough

To make him look more concerned and therefore innocent.

One more point. The (initial?) throat slash in the standing position may not have been enough to kill Liz, at least not quickly enough.
After helping to place her in the lane and remounting his cart, Diemschutz proceeded to the stabling area.
When passing Stride, her body twitched. She was clinging to life - just.
That movement, is what made the pony shy left.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

DrStrange, thanks for those posts highlighting the points I couldn't be bothered making. Well put.