Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[DJA]

Liz and friend left The Bricklayers Arms at 11 pm.
It was three blocks away.

The "kitchen door" was 18 feet inside Dutfield's Yard.

[drstrange169]

Fresh eyes are always welcome, but the problem here is you haven't provided anything, in the various snippets of your theory you've offered thus far, that is compatible with the evidence.

In fact, come to think of it, we don't know exactly what your theory is.

[drstrange169]

>> How far was the Bricklayer's Arms Public House on Settles street, from the murder location?
Why go that far, when any dark spot will do?<<

I'm never surprised by how far people will go to have sex.

[drstrange169]

>>Also, was Stride actually soliciting that night, ...<<

I never wrote she was.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> If the pony and cart were parked outside the backdoor, where was Jack the Ripper?<<

Out the gate and on his way to Mitre Sq while Deimshitz parked his cart (if it was the same killer).

I reckon he just ducked under the cart, as suggested by Mrs Mortimer

[drstrange169]

>>If the evidence is incompatible with my theory, the source must be regarded as unreliable<<

I'm assuming you meant if the evidence is compatible with my theory ... ;-)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny wasn't interviewed until the next day. As the Echo reported the street was alive with gossip by then.

Your attitude seems to be:

If the evidence is incompatible with my theory, the source must be regarded as unreliable

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'll leave the final words to the Corner's summation,

"At 1 o'clock the body was found by the manager of the club. He had been out all day, and returned at the time. He was in a two-wheeled barrow drawn by a pony, and as he entered the gateway his pony shied at some object on his right. ... it was too dark to see what the object was and he passed on further down the yard. He returned on foot, and on searching found the body of deceased ..."

In other words:

Parking at the door is not compatible with the whip probing.

So:

Have you now accepted that the whip probing is a fiction?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Couples in a big city having a quick knee-trembler on a Saturday night in a dark spot a few feet from a roadway isn't an usual occurrence, now or back in 1888.

How far was the Bricklayer's Arms Public House on Settles street, from the murder location?
Why go that far, when any dark spot will do?

Also, was Stride actually soliciting that night, or out with a man, having a good time?

[drstrange169]

>> How does Mrs Mortimer become aware of the details of Mrs Diemschutz' location, and of the probable audibility of outside events, to her?<<

Fanny wasn't interviewed until the next day. As the Echo reported the street was alive with gossip by then.

[drstrange169]

>> If the pony and cart were parked outside the backdoor, where was Jack the Ripper?<<

Out the gate and on his way to Mitre Sq while Deimshitz parked his cart (if it was the same killer).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hello Spider,

>> I wasn't quoting from any newspaper it was a court document as far as I can remember. Newspapers, as they are now, are unreliable. II will dig out the book later.<<

The quote is from The Times 2nd Oct 1888 page 6.



It's in the indispensable "Ultimate JTR Sourcebook, which is maybe why you're thinking it might be official.

When my pony shied I was passing the body, and was right by when I got down.

What time-span do you suppose is represented by the comma?
In this post I "guesstimate" up to 9 seconds. That is based on a velocity range of 2-2.5ft/s.
Having now watched the following video, I reckon that is optimistic.

The fairly rough and unevenly laid pavement, combined with a tireless cart, suggests a velocity of only around 1.5ft/s.
That increases the shy-to-stop time-span to 12 seconds, when "right by" is assumed to mean "right by the body" (that is, the thing that causes the pony to shy).
On the other hand, if "right by" refers to the side door, the the shy-to-stop time-span goes to well over 20 seconds.
That's long enough for Jack to walk inside and sign the visitors book!

[drstrange169]

>> Diemschutz' testimony is full of holes and inconsistencies. <<

If there are, they haven't been mentioned on this thread yet.


>>Here's another one... Visibility with match: Visibility with candle: There is a major problem here... A candle is hardly any brighter than a match!<<

A classic case of a 21st century internet thinking over reality, I'm afraid.

Every single person who heard Deimshitz's story, read it or had it read to them in 1888 was far more expert on the subject of matches and candles than you. They would have grown up with them. They would have used them to some degree on a daily basis. Had Deimshitz's story not rung true about matches and candles he would have been sprung straight away.

My advice is actually try it.

I grew up in my early years on a remote(ish) farm where electricity could be sporadic, matches, candles and paraffin lights were often resorted to. There is nothing odd or unusual in what Deimshitz claims to have been able to see.

[drstrange169]

>> Parking at the door is not compatible with the whip probing. Have you now accepted that the whip probing is a fiction?<<

(Heavy sigh) Read what is written. All of it.

Deimshitz arrives.

His pony reacts to something so he draws along side of it.

He prods it with his whip handle.

Curiosity peaked, he parks his cart by the back door walks back to the mysterious object and strikes a match.

It's all there in the reports. if you read them fully.

The police understood it, Baxter and the jury understood it, why can't you?

I'll leave the final words to the Corner's summation,

"At 1 o'clock the body was found by the manager of the club. He had been out all day, and returned at the time. He was in a two-wheeled barrow drawn by a pony, and as he entered the gateway his pony shied at some object on his right. ... it was too dark to see what the object was and he passed on further down the yard. He returned on foot, and on searching found the body of deceased ..."

[drstrange169]

>> This got me thinking - how viable was the yard lane as a spot for prostitutes to take clients for sex?
I'm aware that the yard lane and closed gates were around 9-12ft wide.
If sex was intended to occur quite close to the open gate edge (that is, the death position), the pair would have only been ~7ft from the entrance - not exactly a private location. <<

Rightly or wrongly, I'm assuming you are not very worldly.

Couples in a big city having a quick knee-trembler on a Saturday night in a dark spot a few feet from a roadway isn't an usual occurrence, now or back in 1888.

I suggest reading some of the published works by Victorian social workers, the likes of Booth, Barnet and Butler. That kind of behaviour was common in the East End back then and I suspect, still is. Also, remember just two streets way was the so called Tiger Bay area, infamous for prostitution.



>> Furthermore, they would have been right outside a busy club, roughly equidistant from two of its entrances.<<

Let's check list the previous recent murders:

Emma Smith attacked on the major thoroughfare of Osbourne Street.
Martha Tabram murdered on the stairs of a heavily populated block of flats.
"Polly" Nichols murdered in the street virtually under the window of the light sleeping Green family.
Annie Chapman murdered in a backyard with no escape route, right next to the back door of a heavily populated house, close to the time the tenants would be getting up.

Arguable Berner, Mitre and Dorset Streets were all much safer places for the murderer. Especially as all witnesses agree you could walk past the murder spot and not see anything.