Who is this "notorious woman"?

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello Debs. Thanks. Interesting that they should be so open about the business.

Good luck on the follow up.

Cheers.
LC

[Beowulf]

My mother came over today, asked me to look up this man, she saw a movie (Lord Jeff) with Freddie Bartholomew. In it Lord Jeff had gone to Dr. Barnardo's maritine school. I looked him up for her, he happens to look like this drawing.

Was in London at the time, would be about the right age. I know he might not be JTR but here is his photo, so you can see how much he does resemble the drawing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_John_Barnardo

My mother feels a motive might be anger over prostitutes having illegit children and not caring for them. He ran a home for orphans and neglected children. Just a thought. Resemblance is there, at any rate.

[Beowulf]

If you'll notice, that looks to be the same suit, piping on the outside of the lapel.

[Debra A]

If you'll notice, that looks to be the same suit, piping on the outside of the lapel.

Hi Beowulf.
Well spotted!
Yes, I think you are absolutely right and the newspaper has sketched a picture of Dr.Barnado and captioned it as a latest picture of the Ripper to accompany the 'notorious woman' story.
The big question is, why?!

Chicago May's claims about Bella Freeman using her fortune to track JTR doesn't mention Bella taking a picture of him at all. These are two separate stories.

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks. Interesting that they should be so open about the business.

Good luck on the follow up.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
I don't know what, if anything, they know of Bella yet. I merely traced later descendants and then contacted one of them by email without mentioning anything. It may be just a case of me helping add to their family tree , as I did with the Alice Carroll family member.

[Beowulf]

Hi Beowulf.
Well spotted!
Yes, I think you are absolutely right and the newspaper has sketched a picture of Dr.Barnado and captioned it as a latest picture of the Ripper to accompany the 'notorious woman' story.
The big question is, why?!

Chicago May's claims about Bella Freeman using her fortune to track JTR doesn't mention Bella taking a picture of him at all. These are two separate stories.

Yeah, I do think it is definitely a drawing from a photograph of Dr. Barnardo. With all the great researcher on here I'm hoping someone can verify if this man could at all be possibly the one this Bell Freeman felt so strongly about him being JTR.

I don't know the story of Bella, is it out there? I know the few snipets put on here that she ran a brothel. What was the incident that led her to believe the drawing (claimed to be a photograph, strangely enough) of the man was JTR. Something obviously convinced her strongly.

Who was the girl associated with the story? Was she accosted and last seen with Dr. Barnardo? I mean, he could've just been a client of her girls, but then again, could this man really have been Jack the Ripper?

[Debra A]

Yeah, I do think it is definitely a drawing from a photograph of Dr. Barnardo. With all the great researcher on here I'm hoping someone can verify if this man could at all be possibly the one this Bell Freeman felt so strongly about him being JTR.

I don't know the story of Bella, is it out there? I know the few snipets put on here that she ran a brothel. What was the incident that led her to believe the drawing (claimed to be a photograph, strangely enough) of the man was JTR. Something obviously convinced her strongly.

Who was the girl associated with the story? Was she accosted and last seen with Dr. Barnardo? I mean, he could've just been a client of her girls, but then again, could this man really have been Jack the Ripper?

What we know of the story of Bella is in the few posts on here and researched originally back in 2007.
Thanks to Chris Phillips who just sent me the archived 2007 original thread started by SPE, the summary I posted a couple a days ago (post #6) is
about right. Roger Palmer originally mentioned the Washington Post article shown at the beginning of this thread and Stewart Evans agreed that the comments made by Chicago May were probably about the subject of the newspaper article, Bella Freeman.
Maybe the family member I've contacted will get in touch one day and perhaps shed some light.

[Debra A]

I don't know the story of Bella, is it out there? I know the few snipets put on here that she ran a brothel. What was the incident that led her to believe the drawing (claimed to be a photograph, strangely enough) of the man was JTR. Something obviously convinced her strongly.

This is why Bella was originally being researched as the answer to these questions was (and still as far as I am aware) unknown.

Ever since I found out that Bella Freeman's real name was Bella Poolman, I, along with the help of Rob Clack, have been researching all her known addresses from her will, her census entries, electoral rolls, and recently land tax books and also the records of her only son.

None of her addresses or property associated with her had any known JTR links although she was in the heart of Spitalfields/Whitechapel and not just in the West End as assumed by others.

I posted to this thread the other day just to say that after 5 years of looking for a connection I had accidentally discovered a very tenuous link between Bella and Martha Tabram through the husband of Martha's sister in law lodging with Bella's son in 1881 and thought it may be worth following up in case Martha Tabram was known to Bella Freeman. Martha used to pester Ann and Thomas Morriss for money apparently so she wasn't a stranger to them by all accounts.

...anyway.

[Beowulf]

This is why Bella was originally being researched as the answer to these questions was (and still as far as I am aware) unknown.

Ever since I found out that Bella Freeman's real name was Bella Poolman, I, along with the help of Rob Clack, have been researching all her known addresses from her will, her census entries, electoral rolls, and recently land tax books and also the records of her only son.

None of her addresses or property associated with her had any known JTR links although she was in the heart of Spitalfields/Whitechapel and not just in the West End as assumed by others.

I posted to this thread the other day just to say that after 5 years of looking for a connection I had accidentally discovered a very tenuous link between Bella and Martha Tabram through the husband of Martha's sister in law lodging with Bella's son in 1881 and thought it may be worth following up in case Martha Tabram was known to Bella Freeman. Martha used to pester Ann and Thomas Morriss for money apparently so she wasn't a stranger to them by all accounts.

...anyway.

Five years of looking! My goodness, I'm impressed with the effort you make and I am grateful for it as well. The story is like grains of sand slipping through the hands of time, but thankfully you and a few others (Rob Clack for one) do such hard work and bring light to these things where light can be let in.

Thank you for that

[Debra A]

Five years of looking! My goodness, I'm impressed with the effort you make and I am grateful for it as well. The story is like grains of sand slipping through the hands of time, but thankfully you and a few others (Rob Clack for one) do such hard work and bring light to these things where light can be let in.

Thank you for that

Thanks. Five years more off than on!
Your recognising the picture as Dr. Barnado was brilliant and has got me very curious now. Dr.Barnado viewed Elizabeth Stride's body at the mortuary and claimed she had been amongst a group of women he talked to at a lodging house so he was 'in the thick of things' to some extent.
Maybe Barnado's likeness was sketched for some sort of prank seeing as the illustration appeared in the US press? It's all very odd and very intriguing.

[Bridewell]

I wonder if someone else would like to locate Thomas and Ann Morris (relatives of Martha Tabram and Ann was witness ather inquest) in the 1881 census. I would be interested in their results.

Hi Debs,

There are several possibilities. Any ideas on ages or place of birth? Occupation perhaps?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

There are several possibilities. Any ideas on ages or place of birth?

Regards, Bridewell.

LOL. I wanted you to do it from scratch, Colin. Not through being mean, just that I started from a marriage and worked through the census entries like that,I was satisfied I had the right people in some census entries but unsure about what happened in 1881 and wanted someone to repeat the exercise and see if they got the same results.
What if I said Ann Morriss was originally Ann Tabram...would that help?

[Bridewell]

LOL. I wanted you to do it from scratch, Colin. Not through being mean, just that I started from a marriage and worked through the census entries like that,I was satisfied I had the right people in some census entries but unsure about what happened in 1881 and wanted someone to repeat the exercise and see if they got the same results.
What if I said Ann Morriss was originally Ann Tabram...would that help?

Thanks for that! In the immortal words of Captain Lawrence Oates....

"I am just going outside and may be some time!"

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Thanks for that! In the immortal words of Captain Lawrence Oates....

"I am just going outside and may be some time!"

Regards, Bridewell.

I have every faith you will get on the right path straight away, Colin! Take note of the spelling of Morriss, that may help.

[Beowulf]

Thanks. Five years more off than on!
Your recognising the picture as Dr. Barnado was brilliant and has got me very curious now. Dr.Barnado viewed Elizabeth Stride's body at the mortuary and claimed she had been amongst a group of women he talked to at a lodging house so he was 'in the thick of things' to some extent.
seeing as the illustration appeared in the US press? It's all very odd and very intriguing.

Oh my god!