One size fits all?

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Greg. Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

expansion

Hello Dave. Well, threads are like minds--made to expand. (Hmm, waistlines too. heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Well, threads are like minds--made to expand. (Hmm, waistlines too. heh-heh)

You've been talking to my missus again then....anything new on Eddowes or is it still too early to ask?

Dave

[lynn cates]

waiting, and waiting, and . . .

Hello Dave. I have been waiting on Princeton University for 3 months. Think I'd better chat them up.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Lynn
This thread is more than usually difficult to follow, but...
The Victorian police were quite good at solving murders generally speaking – not least because most were domestics which are relatively easily solved. It is clear that the police looked at each Ripper case to see of there was a domestic angle and in each case that possibility was rejected.
There were relatively few unsolved murders.
Then we have this spate of unsolved murders. They have great similarities. In location, time of day they were committed, the general method of killing, the type of victim.
We either have a serial killer at work or an amazing set of coincidences.
It might be fun to play the part of iconoclast, but this discussion it is no more than a fun parlour game at best.

Incidentally – Polly was drunk when Emily Holland met her but was quite capable of conducting a coherent conversation. She was not blind drunk or falling down drunk. By the time she met her killer, around an hour later she would have been more sober. I am certain she would have been able to recognise and identify a knife wielding raving lunatic and take appropriate action – such as scream at least.
Annie Chapman was terminally ill but she was not aware of this. It came to light as a result of her post mortem. It would not have affected how she would have behaved in the company of a potential client nor when in the company of a raving and obvious lunatic wielding a big chopper.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lechmere,

If I may Id like to take a shot a few of your statements in your last post;

"It is clear that the police looked at each Ripper case to see of there was a domestic angle and in each case that possibility was rejected."

I believe its more accurate to say that their personal relationships were considered but no evidence was found that incriminated any of them.

"There were relatively few unsolved murders."

Well, we do have torsos baffling the Police, terrorist bombings that were unsolved, I think it depends on what kind of murders you're talking about. And in that context, the Torso's are more akin to Ripper style murders.

Then we have this spate of unsolved murders. They have great similarities. In location, time of day they were committed, the general method of killing, the type of victim.

True they are alike in region, in victimology and in murder weapon, also in historical juxtaposition. They are not all alike in the manner and methodology of their murders.

"We either have a serial killer at work or an amazing set of coincidences."

How about we either have a serial killer here or more than one killer who likely augmented his work so as to be viewed in Ripper context. We have no idea if Kate Eddowes was killed because she pissed someone dangerous off, we only know that the end result of that murder resembles a ripping. It is possible and perhaps likely that these 5 murders have no business being investigated as a single killer series...the proof?... perhaps that there have been no answers yet.

"Incidentally – Polly was drunk when Emily Holland met her but was quite capable of conducting a coherent conversation. She was not blind drunk or falling down drunk. By the time she met her killer, around an hour later she would have been more sober."

We dont know if Polly had a client in the interim and then drank the proceeds before her next client. Or if her client had a bottle.

"I am certain she would have been able to recognise and identify a knife wielding raving lunatic and take appropriate action – such as scream at least."

If she saw it coming, of course.

"Annie Chapman was terminally ill but she was not aware of this. It came to light as a result of her post mortem. It would not have affected how she would have behaved in the company of a potential client nor when in the company of a raving and obvious lunatic wielding a big chopper."

In reality Annie expressed to her friend that night how poorly she felt, weak and miserable, and we know she had pills from the Infirmary to support that. She was weak, tired and sick and as a result perhaps as surprised as Polly. I say perhaps because Cadosche may have heard her last word.

Best regards Lechmere,
Mike R

[Mr Lucky]

We dont know if Polly had a client in the interim and then drank the proceeds before her next client. Or if her client had a bottle.

Hi Mike,

Dr. Llewellyn checked her stomach contents, there was no smell of alcohol.

Best wishes

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Lechmere. Thanks.

"The Victorian police were quite good at solving murders generally speaking – not least because most were domestics which are relatively easily solved."

Agreed.

"It is clear that the police looked at each Ripper case to see of there was a domestic angle and in each case that possibility was rejected."

No argument here.

"There were relatively few unsolved murders."

Quite.

"Then we have this spate of unsolved murders. They have great similarities. In location, time of day they were committed, the general method of killing, the type of victim."

Partly agree. There was one young lad found who was cut open like Annie and Kate. He gets no discussion, for some reason. Then there are the torsos. Type of victim? They were all homo sapiens sapiens.

"We either have a serial killer at work or an amazing set of coincidences."

Well, for what it's worth, I know of very few established ripper students who wish to lump all these cases together. But they are ALL unsolved.

"It might be fun to play the part of iconoclast, but this discussion it is no more than a fun parlour game at best."

But the most interesting parlour game of all is to be an iconodule and play psychologist--replete with imaginary Freudian complexes. Wish I had enough spare time for such nonsense.

"Incidentally – Polly was drunk when Emily Holland met her but was quite capable of conducting a coherent conversation."

Indeed. And?

"She was not blind drunk or falling down drunk."

Well, perhaps the latter. Blind? Maybe Aaron Kosminski--due to his recreational habits. (heh-heh)

"By the time she met her killer, around an hour later she would have been more sober. I am certain she would have been able to recognise and identify a knife wielding raving lunatic and take appropriate action – such as scream at least."

Are you imagining he came at her, knife in hand? I don't, nor do I think he had any intention to kill her.

"Annie Chapman was terminally ill but she was not aware of this. It came to light as a result of her post mortem. It would not have affected how she would have behaved . . . "

It did, however, result in a slight stagger. She was a very sick woman. But don't take my word for. Look at the inquest testimony.

" . . . in the company of a potential client nor when in the company of a raving and obvious lunatic wielding a big chopper."

Again, your hyperbole is out of place. My lad did not travel knife in hand. What's more, his intention was not likely to kill.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

Dr. Llewellyn checked her stomach contents, there was no smell of alcohol.

Best wishes

Hi Mr Lucky,

You mean there was no lab test, no blood test that might confirm the presence? We KNOW Polly drank that night, we know she was drunk when last seen. So smell or no smell she had certainly imbibed in the hours before her murder.

Liz apparently did not. She was tested for it. I dont recall the smell of alcohol in her stomach contents being the litmus test there.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Bridewell]

That Depends

She was not blind drunk or falling down drunk. By the time she met her killer, around an hour later she would have been more sober.

Not necessarily. It depends on what she'd drunk and in what quantity. Different alcoholic drinks enter the bloodstream at different rates. Sherry & strong cider are quickly absorbed. Spirits are processed much more slowly because the system cannot handle that sort of concentration of alcohol at a fast rate. If Polly had consumed a large quantity of gin earlier in the evening her blood/alcohol level may have continued to rise, even without further consumption.

(I knew that training as a Lion Intoximeter / Intoxilyser Super-User would come in handy one day!)

Regards, Bridewell

[lynn cates]

satori

Hello Colin. Thanks. I am in your debt for this. I have always wondered why Polly had not sobered up a bit by the time she met Oram. Now I understand.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Polly left the Frying Pan at around 12.30. Even slow delay alcohol would have been in her system fully by 2.30 and some would been well on the way out by 3.30.
Unless she went boozing between 2.30 and 3.30 in some late night establishment with a punter and then went on the lookout for yet another customer. But then there isn't the slightest shred of evidence that this happened. But hey! Who cares.

[Errata]

Hello Colin. Thanks. I am in your debt for this. I have always wondered why Polly had not sobered up a bit by the time she met Oram. Now I understand.

Cheers.
LC

Is it possible she wasn't drunk, but was having some sort of problem? Evidently, when they cracked open her head, she had black blood clotted in her brain. Which is not normal, since blood does not float freely in and about the melon. Is it possible she had a stroke the night she was killed? Slurred speech, motor impairment, stupor, memory problems, all common to both strokes and drunkenness. It would probably qualify as the worst night a person ever had, but it's certainly possible. And it might explain some apparent contradictions.

[Hunter]

You mean there was no lab test, no blood test that might confirm the presence? We KNOW Polly drank that night, we know she was drunk when last seen. So smell or no smell she had certainly imbibed in the hours before her murder.

Liz apparently did not. She was tested for it. I dont recall the smell of alcohol in her stomach contents being the litmus test there.

Hi Mike,

There were three ways pathologists used to determine the existence of alcohol in the stomach at that time.

They actually smelled the contents for alcohol.
They made a visual examination, which only determined if a malt beverage had been ingested by literally looking for foamy residuals.
They took the stomach and its contents to a lab for chemical analysis. We are only aware that this was done in the case of Catherine Eddowes by Dr. Saunders, public analyst for The City of London, and the search for narcotics - not alcohol - was the reason for the test.

The Home Office had public analysts available for use as well, but never seemed to use them in the Met cases. These were Thomas Stevenson - who conducted tests on acids in the Lipski/Angel case of 1887 - and Charles Tidy, who was involved in the chemical forensics of The Maybrick case.

They never felt the need for any detailed analysis for alcohol consumption in any of the Whitechapel murders beyond the basic primitive procedure. If alcohol was consumed at a slow rate or in no great concentration within an hour or two before death, the methods used by police surgeons, such as Mr. Phillips, were very imprecise in actually determining the level of intoxication of an individual at the time of death.

[lynn cates]

possible

Hello Errata. I suppose that's possible.

What effect would strangulation have?

Cheers.
LC