How do Suspects compare?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil,

A bowler indeed.

Not that I suppose it matters, but at Chislehurst, on July 10th 1884, M. J. Druitt [West Kent] bowled out Robert Leigh Pemberton [Band of Brothers], son of Edward Leigh Pemberton, an original member of the BBs and Assistant Under Secretary at the Home Office during the Ripper murders.

Small world, isn't it?

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

A bowler indeed.

Not that I suppose it matters, but at Chislehurst, on July 10th 1884, M. J. Druitt [West Kent] bowled out Robert Leigh Pemberton [Band of Brothers], son of Edward Leigh Pemberton, an original member of the BBs and Assistant Under Secretary at the Home Office during the Ripper murders.

Small world, isn't it?

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

Small world indeed- in the Rip article I did there were some coincidences there too- and I believe I may have put a few out on the boards somewhere.

The mere fact he was playing cricket on one or two of the murder dates (one way down in the west Country) really doesnt help his candidacy either.

Best wishes

Phil

[Wickerman]

The mere fact he was playing cricket on one or two of the murder dates (one way down in the west Country) really doesnt help his candidacy either.

I would hazard a guess Phil that the dire need to return to a normal life, giving himself a tight schedule is all part of the rush. To us, we might think the timing is too tight, but to the killer, his challenge to get back all cleaned up & on the field, therefore establishing some sort of alibi, is all part of the game.

Given the mind-set of a serial killer, I wouldn't rule Druitt out on this point.
Only, if it was impossible to make the game.

Regards, Jon S.

[Jonathan H]

No, arguably, it does help his candidacy because the family and Macanghten (a Cricket tragic) knew all this -- and a humoungus lot more than we ever will -- and yet they couldn't, posthumously, get Montie off.

The extraordinary and instructive new source found by Paul shows that even though there was another 'Ripper' murder in Whitechapel (Coles) Farquharson remained totally un-moved -- it's not 'Jack'. He's dead.

So, even when, apparently, the police are still hunting the Ripper and have arrested and are investigating a seemingly likely suspect (Sadler) the MP knows enough to be serenely certain that it will come to nothing as far as 'Jack' goes, proving himself to be way ahead of general police opinion by about seven years.

If it was all so easy to prove that Montie was delusional, or even just might be delusional (eg. near enough is going to be good enough for an anguished family) they would have exonerated him.

But they couldn't and they didn't.

Rightly or wrongly, Macnaghten went to his premature grave believing, like the MP, that his deceased suspect (as opposed to Anderson's deceased suspect, who was alive) was the Ripper.

For secondary sources to second guess primary sources who conducted the [posthumous] investigation, inevitably including tight cricket schedules, is a really big call to make.

[Phil Carter]

follow up

Hello Simon,

Small world indeed- in the Rip article I did there were some coincidences there too- and I believe I may have put a few out on the boards somewhere.

The mere fact he was playing cricket on one or two of the murder dates (one way down in the west Country) really doesnt help his candidacy either.

Best wishes

Phil

Hello Simon,all,

Evidence of the above is as follows:-

3rd and 4th August 1888 Druitt played cricket at Bournemouth
10th and 11th August he played cricket there too whìch suggests he may have stayed on there after the 4th, which if true, rules him out of the Tabram murder,

On 1st Sep 1888 he played cricket at Canford in Dorset which rather suggests that unless he sprouted wings and flew during the dark of night he couldnt have killed Mary Nichols either,and finally on the 8th Sept 1888 at 11,30am he was playing cricket in Blackheath meaning he was washed, changed, had all his cricket gear with him and raced off after killing Annie Chapman 6 hours earlier.

All this plus the rather odd fact that throughout the ages there is a curious lack of murdering cricketers. They dont go hand in glove, as it were. see my Rip article. Howzat! Out!

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

There has never been, in the entire history of the game of cricket, from the level of game Druitt played and up- a serial killer amongst its ranks.
Leslie Hylton (West Indies) and Warrington Phillip (West Indies) are the only two known to have committed murder (both singular) and only one other, Vallance Jupp, has been known to have committed manslaughter. Cricketers do not seem to fit the bill of being murderous, let alone a serial killer.

Best wishes

Phil

[Jonathan H]

Sorry Phil but the Wicker Man and I are in rare concord, just on this aspect.

I stand by what I wrote before about cautioning as to whether secondary sources can know more than primary ones on this issue -- plus Tabram was never claimed by Mac to be one of Druitt's murders.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Roy, thank you for posting that Mr Birch/Packer piece. It's quite new to me. Would you take that article to mean Messrs Birch and Packer were personally acquainted?

You're welcome, Tom. Were they acquainted? I don't see why not. Both were in the neighborhood for years.

Points of interest in St George in the East



1 Dutfields Yard
2 Torso
3 Swedish Church
4 Mortuary
5 Stride & Kidney (Whiteton formerly Devonshire Street)
6 Severin Klosowski
7 Martha Tabram (Star Place)
8 Henry Birch's Milk Stand

A Joseph Martin, Photographer
B The Old Rose

Map made with assistance of Rob Clack - Roy

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

As a further statistic, only ONE known cricketer, ever, has gone on from committing a crime to suicide.
Laurie Wilmott (South Africa), was found guilty of rape of a 13 year old girl in 2000. He shot himself with a shotgun in 2004, aged 60. (It was rumoured that he was suffering from an incurable illness at the time).

Of the 24 cricketers (of Druitts level and up) known to have comitted suicide, 24 in quantity, the average age at time of death was over 48years of age, and almost all of them did the deed long after their cricket careers ended.

Best wishes

Phil

[Jonathan H]

Here is Andy Spallek's post on this issue taken from a 2008 thread:

1. Polly Nichols: Murdered early morning 31 August. Druitt's next known appearance is 1 September playing cricket in Dorset. This gives Druitt approximately 30 hours to complete a rail journey of perhaps 3 hours.

2. Ann Chapman: Murdered early morning 8 September. Druitt's next known appearance is later that morning playing cricket in Blackheath. Phil Sugden indicates this match began at 11:30. The rail journey to Blackheath would have been about 30 minutes. Even allowing time for Druitt to make his way to Cannon Street Station, he has more than 4 hours to spare.

3. Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes: Eddowes murdered before 2 AM on 30 September. Cricketing season had ended for most club's (including Druitt's regular club) by this day. A few fixtures were held on 30 September and one or two "make-up" fixtures shortly afterward but Druitt is not known to have participated in these. Druitt's next appearance: According to Leighton, Druitt appeared in court in the West Country (probably meaning Dorset or Hampshire) on 1 October. Leighton does not cite any source but even if it is so, Druitt has well over 30 hours to complete this rail journey of about 3 hours.

4. Mary Kelly: Murdered on 9 November, probably early morning. There are no known movements of Druitt within the following few days.

[Phil Carter]

Sorry Phil but the Wicker Man and I are in rare concord, just on this aspect.

I stand by what I wrote before about cautioning as to whether secondary sources can know more than primary ones on this issue -- plus Tabram was never claimed by Mac to be one of Druitt's murders.

Hello Jonathan.

i am aware we will always agree to differ re Druitt, but apart from your very well worked out psychological theory, there isnt even a sniff of proof that Druitt ever even travelled into Whitechapel, and certainly not at the times of the murders. He is known however, to be far away in one case, a few hours later in Blackheath.. Unless more comes to light (and as you know Ive tried to find more corroberration to Macnaughten's words), then as it stands there just isnt enough for me-and others besides.

Best wishes

Phil

[Jonathan H]

And that's fair enough, Phil.

I am just using the known timeline, 30 hours, to counter-argue that you did not need 'wings' to get to a cricket match in Dorset -- and that I agree with the Wickermench that Druitt may have been setting up a quasi-alibi; to get away from the East End as far as possible, with witnesses.

But I appreciate that you need a lot more than just Macnaghten's dodgy word, and have I not at least shown just how diabolically dodgy a source the affable smoothie can be?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jonathan,

Thanks for the AS stats- my apologies re Nichols date- mixed it up with 30th Sept.

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jonathan,

Indeed-dodgy- and there is one thing we DO agree upon. We have NOT been told the complete truth. No?


Best wishes,

Phil.

[Jonathan H]

No, nothing like the complete truth but the essential truth is provided by Macnaghten in 'Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper' (1914)

The Ripper was a Gentile Englishman, a 'Simon Pure' who imploded at some point after the 'awful glut' of the Kelly murder and took his own life -- though not the same night or morning. A sexual, violent yet high-functioning maniac who could appear perfectly normal: 'Protean'. Mac only discovered his identity from information -- 'certain facts' -- received years after the Miller's Ct. murder, all other subsequent 'Jack' murders turning out to be by unknown others. The gentleman had never been 'detained' in a madhouse, nor had he been a lodger, nor was he ever really sighted by anybody -- but the spiteful graffiti (blaming a trio of Jews) was definitely by him. He lived with his own people -- are they family, friends or not related? -- but was 'absented' from them to go to Whitechapel and commit the crimes. The police never learned of his identity whilst alive, in fact were fruitlessly chasing a shadow until Mac 'laid' his 'ghost' to rest.

If you accept Macnaghten as a reliable source, and of course there are arguments against doing so, then it is arguably not a mystery.