How do Suspects compare?

[lynn cates]

together

Hello Roy, Maria. Well, together in the same article. They belong together.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

"together forever"

You're a hopeless romantic, Lynn. ;-)

[Roy Corduroy]

Henry Birch is who we were discussing. Tom asked for more info.

Birch's story is in the Star Oct 6.

The Nov 12 Daily Telegraph discusses stories with a black bag. That's where Birch was in with Packer, Bachert and Mortimer. In a newspaper. Not in real life.

The Echo, Nov 24 is where Henry Birch and Matthew Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man. In real life. (see post #263 this thread)

This started when Jonathan mentioned Druitt possibly "changing attire." I thought of Henry Birch and the story he told of just such a man.

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Roy Corduroy
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[mariab]

The Nov 12 Daily Telegraph discusses stories with a black bag. That's where Birch was in with Packer, Bachert and Mortimer. In a newspaper. Not in real life.

Got that. I was just messing with Lynn. ;-) (Hard to imagine Packer, Bachert, and Mortimer all together with a black bag, unless drugs were involved – vs., say, Wess' cigar trade.)
(And by the by, Roy, did you catch the sketches of William Morris in Iceland I posted on another thread?)

Birch's story is in the Star Oct 6.
The Echo, Nov 24 is where Henry Birch and Matthew Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man. In real life. (see post #263 this thread)

Many thanx to How for posting the newspaper clipping on post #263 with Packer and Birch apparently having seen a “suspect“ “together“. Very suspicious. That's precisely why I mentioned the false testimony brought over by the 2 sisters also living in the neighborhood. Cuz it sounds eerily similar and related.

Pertaining to folks patrolling the streets pair-wise, look at what the Star of Oct. 6 reports:
A correspondent who was in Whitechapel last night says that detectives were walking in Commercial-road in couples, being followed by men in uniform. Some of the detectives were dressed up as dock laborers, and the disguise according to this observer was clumsy. These detectives follow every suspicious-looking person. Two of them noticed a man and woman drinking coffee at a stall. They followed the couple, arrested the man, took him to Angel-alley, and searched him, and then let him off. This correspondent while going through the streets was importuned by several women. One begged twopence of him to make up her night's lodging. Another seems to have been one of the decoy women which a private firm of detectives have out in order to try and catch the murderer.
Do we have any documentation that the 2 detectives in action might have been Le Grand and Bachelor or on which “private firm“ used women as decoys?

And here the Birch testimony, also from the Star of Oct. 6:
A WOMAN HAD BEEN SET UPON by a man, and that her cries had attracted a number of others, whose efforts to capture her assailant led to the gang story. The miscreant escaped in the direction of Commercial-road. That was about eleven o'clock. Not later than a quarter-past eleven a man stepped hurriedly into a yard entrance at No. 2, Little Turner-street, Commercial-road. On one side of the yard is a milk stand. The man asked for a glass of milk, and, when served, drank it hurriedly, then, looking about in a frightened manner, asked if he might step back into the yard. The proprietor, Henry Birch, did not object, but presently, his suspicions being aroused, he stepped towards the man and found him drawing on a suit of new overalls over his ordinary clothes. The pants were already on, and he was stooping to take a jacket from A BLACK SHINY BAG that lay at his feet when Birch stepped up to him. He seemed to be very much upset by the interruption, and for a moment could not speak. Presently he said, "That was a terrible murder last night, was'nt it?" and before Birch could answer he had added, "I think I've got a clue," and, snatching up his bag, he disappeared down the street. Mr. Birch then thought he might be a detective, adopting a disguise for some purpose, but the police believe he was the man who assaulted the woman in Cambridge Heath-road, and that he donned the overalls to mislead anyone who might be tracing him. They have the name of the woman referred to, and her description tallies with that given by Birch of his mysterious caller. The clothing was described as a blue serge suit, and a stiff but low hat. He wore a stand-up collar and a watch-chain. He wore no beard, but A SLIGHT DARK MOUSTACHE, and his face was evidently sunburnt. Birch says he thought he was a seafaring man, or one who had recently made a long voyage. When he got the overalls on he had the appearance of an engineer. Many points of this description correspond so well to that given of the man who made such pointed inquiries about women at the Nuns Head Tavern, Aldgate, last Saturday night, and also to another description the police have received, that they are inclined to connect the man with the latest murders. THE ONLY QUESTIONABLE POINT appears to be in regard to the hat, and it is just there that the theory of his frequent disguises comes in. It is deemed possible also that what a neighbor in Mitre-square thought was a light paper parcel may have been a black shiny bag, which with the light of the street lamp upon its glazed surface might easily have misled one. It is from a combination of the descriptions above referred to that the police have formed a pretty good idea of one man they would like to find.
Birch's story sounds about as realistic and plausible as Packer's. I wonder if the initial story about the woman being attacked by a man fleeing towards Commercial Road is not referring to the Stride/BS/Schwartz incident in a garbled fashion.
Notice also the "questionable point about the hat“. Incidentally, immediately as next comes an interview with William Marshall during the Stride inquest. Which reminds me of J. Best's and John Gardner's testimony about the man seen with (potentially) Stride in the doorway of the Bricklayer's arms and the different hats involved.

[Bridewell]

No, arguably, it does help his candidacy because the family and Macanghten (a Cricket tragic) knew all this -- and a humoungus lot more than we ever will -- and yet they couldn't, posthumously, get Montie off.

Hi Jonathan,

Perhaps I'm being thick here, but "get Montie off" what exactly? Was anyone running around London accusing MJD of being the Ripper? No. Did the press immediately draw the conclusion that the drowned lawyer/doctor pulled from the river was JtR? No. So why is there a need to "get him off" anything? As far as I know the only reason that anyone thinks MJD might be the killer is MM's own remarks. He's creating a diversion to draw suspicion away from someone who wasn't a suspect in the first place - so why bother?

Sorry Phil but the Wicker Man and I are in rare concord, just on this aspect.

I stand by what I wrote before about cautioning as to whether secondary sources can know more than primary ones on this issue -- plus Tabram was never claimed by Mac to be one of Druitt's murders.

Apologies if I've misunderstood your point , but Phil was talking about MJD's involvement in cricket, wasn't he? Cricket match reports are not a primary source about the Whitechapel Murders, but they are a primary source about cricket matches.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

fantasy

Hello Maria.

"You're a hopeless romantic, Lynn."

Indeed. I still have fantasies about Dr. Stanley. I mean, vi-a-vis the ripper.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes I saw the Morris sketches. Thank you or sharing, Maria.

Maria, in the Star Oct 6 Henry Birch's story of the man changing clothes at his milkstand happened the night after the Nichols murder. The same night of a documented incident when a woman was attacked near Foresters Music Hall on Cambridge Heath Road. Near Bucks Row. (Manchester Guardian Sept 4)

Another night Birch and Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man, in the Echo piece.

Roy

[lynn cates]

Henry James

Hello Roy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that location near Buck's Row--isn't that close to where Henry James--the "harmless lunatic"--was spotted several times?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Maria, in the Star Oct 6 Henry Birch's story of the man changing clothes at his milkstand happened the night after the Nichols murder. The same night of a documented incident when a woman was attacked near Foresters Music Hall on Cambridge Heath Road. Near Bucks Row.(Manchester Guardian Sept 4

Oh, OK, thank you. Was that incident genuine, cuz there are also the reports about a gang-related attack which was later revealed fictitious.
The Star of Oct. 6:
A WOMAN HAD BEEN SET UPON by a man, and that her cries had attracted a number of others, whose efforts to capture her assailant led to the gang story.

Another night Birch and Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man, in the Echo piece.

I've heard of this, but not really buying it.

[Roy Corduroy]

Slice & Dice

Yes Lynn it was the same area.

Uncredibly, Maria, twice now you are snipping bits and pieces of the Oct 6 Star article to change its meaning yet again, so I will leave you to that.

Roy

[lynn cates]

knife

Hello Roy. Thanks. I wonder if Ead's knife was ever explained? Do we know that James was "harmless"?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Mr. Birch

Hi Roy and all,

For those not aware, the police circulated a sheet throughout the station houses following the double event. One newspaper got ahold of it and printed it and it gives the descriptions of BS Man and Lawendes man, as well as Mr. Birch's man, though strangely omits Pipeman. What's interesting to me is that Birch was a witness dating back to the Buck's Row murder and was not a 'double event' witness, so it's interesting he was thought of when the police put this together.

Roy, thank you for providing all of that information.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Quite right Tom.
Those interested can check out Police Gazette of 19 Oct. and the subsequent article in the Daily Telegraph, 12th Nov.

I guess the mark of being harmless in Whitechapel is limited to those who carry knives up their sleeves...


Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Many thanks to Roy, Tom, and Wickerman for clarifying things. I presently can't check The Police Gazette of Oct. 19, but I just checked the subsequent article in The Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12, as cited by Wick. It indeed claims that the Buck Row "suspect“ noticed by “a dairyman“ (AKA Birch) fitted the physical description Packer gave for his “grapeman“. Quoting The Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12:
The characteristics of this individual corresponded with the description given by Packer.
I'd say Birch necessitates intensive research (Who was he? With whom was he acquainted? Can we find out if he had worked for anyone else in Whitechapel? I could even attempt looking at his bank account – if, by miracle, any such thing has survived, and that's a big if). The question that wanders right now through my mind is, could it possibly be that we just got a link between Berner Street and Buck's Row pertaining to a certain suspect who put his foot big time into the Berner Street investigation?

Another thing that holds my interest is that Mortimer's sighting of Leon Goldstein and his “black bag“ was still being instrumentalized in the press long AFTER Goldstein got cleared. I wonder what Lynn would think of this.

As for Bachert's alleged sighting of another “suspicious man with a black bag“ at the Three Nuns Hotel Aldgate, I assume this was on the night of Sept. 30? I wish I had read the article on Bachert in NIR #1, and I'll most certainly read it soon.
(Apologies for the hastiness, but I just got in in my apartment in Berlin after traveling all day by train from Bavaria.)

Below I'm quoting something else that got my attention in The Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12, and wanted to ask if anyone knows to which brothel this refers. I'm sure this would interest Lynn in particular.
MARLBOROUGH-STREET. - DISORDERLY HOUSE PROSECUTION. - Alfred and Amelia Becker were charged on remand with using a certain portion of a house in Berners-street for immoral purposes. The complaint was that of a medical man on the ground floor of the house, who had been greatly annoyed by the woman taking strange men upstairs. - The defence was that they came in for the purpose of purchasing birds from an aviary on the upper floor, but this defence was abandoned.

[lynn cates]

brothels and birds

Hello Maria. I assure you that, at my age and advanced condition of decrepitude, a brothel article is not too interesting to me. (heh-heh)

The aviary angle is new on me. Sounds rather like the "Dead Parrot" sketch.

Cheers.
LC