How do Suspects compare?

[mklhawley]

Mike.
What do you think this means...

Great excitement was caused shortly before ten o'clock to-night in the East-end by the arrest of a man with a blackened face, who publicly proclaimed himself to be "Jack the Ripper." This was at the corner of Wentworth-street, Commercial-street, near the scene of the latest crime. ............ It took four constables and four civilians to convey him to the station and protect him from the infuriated crowd. He is detained in custody.

The next day...

"It was stated late last night that the persons taken in custody on the previous day had been liberated, and it is doubtful if the constabulary have obtained new clues to assist their search."

Don't bother with all that gobbledygook about due process. Anyone suspected of murder was detained until they were checked out. You will find dozens of examples if you'd only look.
If Tumblety was suspected at any time he was 'nicked', in lock-up, in the slammer, until he was cleared.

Regards, Jon S.

Are you ignoring my last post? Since Anderson clearly considered Tumblety a suspect after the Tumblety arrests, then this stuff is irrelevent. Tumblety would not admit to anything so they were forced to let him go. It was only until they had enough on him with the gross indecency charge that they could set the court date. Innocent until proven guilty, even if you believe them to be guilty.

So, are you still sticking to 'The US contacted SY first, and Andrews was not chasing a murder suspect' or will you admit that this is dead wrong?

[Wickerman]

Mike.
What do you think this means...

Great excitement was caused shortly before ten o'clock to-night in the East-end by the arrest of a man with a blackened face, who publicly proclaimed himself to be "Jack the Ripper." This was at the corner of Wentworth-street, Commercial-street, near the scene of the latest crime. ............ It took four constables and four civilians to convey him to the station and protect him from the infuriated crowd. He is detained in custody.

The next day...

"It was stated late last night that the persons taken in custody on the previous day had been liberated, and it is doubtful if the constabulary have obtained new clues to assist their search."

Don't bother with all that gobbledygook about due process. Anyone suspected of murder was detained until they were checked out. You will find dozens of examples if you'd only look.
If Tumblety was suspected at any time he was 'nicked', in lock-up, in the slammer, until he was cleared.

Regards, Jon S.

[mklhawley]

The US contacted SY first, and Andrews was not chasing a murder suspect.

You never read Roger's article did you. Vanderlinden even admits Brooklyn's Police Superintendant (Campbell) was contacted not only by Scotland Yard but by Assistant Commissioner Anderson. If he was a weak suspect with insignificant concern then why didn't Anderson have one of his subordinates contact one of Campbell's subordinates -especially since there would not have been a time-critical issue. Is Vanderlinden wrong?

Next we have conflicting reports that either San Francisco's Crowley contacted Anderson or we have Anderson contacting Crowley. I already told you of the temporal problem of the former, but we also have Anderson contacting another US top cop on the SAME day! Is is not interesting that the San Francisco AND the Brooklyn reports do not talk about anyone in Scotland Yard but Anderson himself?

It's interesting that you stated 'SY' and not 'Anderson'. So, is Vanderlinden wrong or are you?

[harry]

The point I was making about Thomson,is that in 1913 when he took over,he was in a position to avail himself of all information,of an official nature,that w as on file at that time..Had there been anything that conclusivly identified the Ripper,such as an identification,he disregseded it in naming Pedechenko.Sure he may,like his predecessors,have been,because of time,a little hazy in remembering,but was he likely to forget evidence that had proved the identity of the Ripper.?Swanson could remember a seaside home and the name of the suspect.Why not Thomson? Like Trevor says,the information should have been there in the files.Had it happened.

[Wickerman]

Jon,

How can you say Tumblety was cleared if Anderson still solicited information from US chiefs of police?

The US contacted SY first, and Andrews was not chasing a murder suspect.

Also, are you saying that Scotland Yard could ignore police procedures and the adversarial system of justice?

"Police murder suspects" are either on the run (Crippen?), which clearly Tumblety had been charged & bailed, so was in police custody. Or, they are detained until checked out.
There are any number of examples of peoples 'suspected' by someone, hauled in off the street, and held until they were checked out.

Could you please give me some examples of Whitechapel murder suspects held for extended periods of time without due process?

I would be more than happy to, but there never were any. "Police suspect" is a misnomer. Remember what Anderson said in October?, "we had no clue".

Regards, Jon S.

[mklhawley]

Lets face it Paul, if Tumblety could provide an alibi for the nights in question, he is not a suspect. If he couldn't he would be detained. The police are not setting murder suspects free while their stories are checked out.

Investigation of a murder suspect may take hours or days, but once located he will be detained until checked out. If Tumblety had been suspected in England he was investigated and cleared. If he was not cleared then he could not have jumped bail while still detained and under investigation.

Jon,

How can you say Tumblety was cleared if Anderson still solicited information from US chiefs of police? That's again convoluted logic. Andersno would not have done it if Tumblethy was cleared.

Also, are you saying that Scotland Yard could ignore police procedures and the adversarial system of justice? Didn't they have courts back then? Could you please give me some examples of Whitechapel murder suspects held for extended periods of time without due process? No one saw the murders, so what would they have had on him to take him to court? There is one possibility to keep someone for an extended period of time WITH court involvment. Convict him of gross indecency, which would keep him in prison for at least a year. As I recall, Anderson had some contacts in the prison system.

Or Scotland Yard controlled the Marlborough Street Magistrate. Not likely.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning here. Isn't Bridewell simply saying that Tumblety as a possible Ripper could have been brought to Littlechild's attention and as it was outside his remit he passed it on to the murder team, thus the information being known to him first-hand? Because if he is, I don't see how that has any relevance to Tumblety's importance as a suspect or why we don't hear of him from other police sources.

Paul.
Had a private investigator come across evidence that a Dr. Tumblety was associated in some way with the Whitechapel murders I am quite sure Littlechild would place his own interests first.

This evidence would be the goose that laid the golden egg in so far as his reputation and private investigation business was concerned.
Are you suggesting Littlechild would pass this major discovery off with such a passive comment by saying, "Tumblety was just another police suspect"?

On the other hand, if the evidence turned out to be misinformation therefore incorrect, why mention it to Sims at all?

Lets face it Paul, if Tumblety could provide an alibi for the nights in question, he is not a suspect. If he couldn't he would be detained. The police are not setting murder suspects free while their stories are checked out.

Investigation of a murder suspect may take hours or days, but once located he will be detained until checked out. If Tumblety had been suspected in England he was investigated and cleared. If he was not cleared then he could not have jumped bail while still detained and under investigation.

Regards, Jon S.

[Jonathan H]

To Bridewell

Macnaghten is a primary source on Druitt because he investigated him.

He is obviously not a primary source on Druitt's life while living because the latter had been dead for over two years.

Nevertheless, the police chief, arguably, made a thorough, posthumous investigation. He met with the people who knew Druitt well -- and I don't mean just the MP -- and from them, his family, he became convinced that this was the Ripper.

Of course he and they could have been mistaken -- which is a helluva mistake to make about a tale none of them would want to be true?!

Through cronies, years later, Macnaghten disseminated this revelation to the public but did so in veiled form. We know that he did not really believe every aspect of it because he debunked elements of it in his own memoirs.

Therefore, Macnaghten is a primary source on the posthumous investigation of Druitt, and thus when you read Sims you are reading Mac -- who, for example, knew that brother William was searching for his missing sibling, a detail which is post-Moulson (see other thread).

[mklhawley]

Hi Tom,

No.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

You've been hinting at this for more than a year, yet we still haven't seen it. I actually thought you were going to impress us at the publication of your book, but you are now hinting that the details aren't complete. Maybe it's because you are misinterpreting the evidence?

Interestingly, Anderson still requested information from the US chiefs of police on Tumblety ABOUT THE MURDERS after the Tumblety/Kelly event. Wolf even admits that Anderson still considered Tumblety a suspect after the Kelly murder (just not a prime suspect). So Simon, this is where you and Wolf disagree with each other. Why would Anderson consider Tumblety even a minor suspect if he was in jail during the Kelly murder?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

No.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

“…He had been living in Birmingham and used to come up to London on Saturday nights. The police have always had their eyes on him every place he went, and finally the Birmingham Police telegraphed to the London Police that he had left for London, and on his arrival he was nabbed accordingly…I do not think he could be the Whitechapel fiend….”

I wonder, is THIS the 'evidence' Simon has that Tumblety was in jail during the Kelly murder? The supposition that a) The man described was Tumblety, and b) that he was followed and arrested on the day of Kelly's murder? Simon?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mklhawley]

Odd how you have edited out the most important part of this letter Mike. Here’s the part you didn’t want Trevor to see –

“…He had been living in Birmingham and used to come up to London on Saturday nights. The police have always had their eyes on him every place he went, and finally the Birmingham Police telegraphed to the London Police that he had left for London, and on his arrival he was nabbed accordingly…I do not think he could be the Whitechapel fiend….”

This, as has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, is describing, not Tumblety, but the Euston Station Suspect. The physical description of this suspect did not match Tumblety; the description of his working background did not match Tumblety; this man was in Birmingham and under the constant surveillance of the Birmingham Police while Tumblety was in London and part of the time under remand and in jail; Tumblety didn’t receive bail until Friday, the 16th of November while the Euston Station Suspect didn’t leave Birmingham, according to the Birmingham Police who were watching his every move, until Saturday, the 17th of November.

Smith was obviously dead wrong in what he wrote and he obviously didn’t get his information from a “source in England” or from some Canadian Government official, unless that supposed source was greatly misinformed and confused. As has been pointed out to you, again on numerous occasions, the likely source for Smith’s “information” was the Ottawa newspapers since stores of Tumblety’s arrest and the arrest of the Euston Station Suspect hit the papers in North America at about the same time.

Wolf.

Wickerman,

The reason why I was conspicuously silent was because I've been driving all night to Myrtle Beach for a week-long family vacation. Sadly, I can only respond quickly to Wolf's response and I do not have my material with me.

Wolf! How's it going? I see you're following me everywhere I post on Casebook. Participating in cyber-bullying are we? If you really want to hang, I only live 2 hours away, so maybe we should do lunch.

The only reason I did not add this is because it was not pertinent to my point. You are insinuating that I am hiding something. Actually, people like Wickerman will automatically embrace your statement because he's a minimalist when it comes to Tumblety. Wickerman, why not read Roger Palmer's article to see the multiple factoids that Vanderlinden not only got wrong but used these misconceptions to bolster his arguments. So, do you still think Tumblety was never in Toronto for decades prior to the murders? I see you're now singing a different tune when it comes to Anderson soliciting information from US Chiefs of Police. ...yet you still think Crowley initiated. Amazing. So, do you still think Dunham was the origin of Colonel Sothern?

Nowhere does it say Smith got his information from the Ottawa article on Tumblety. Vanderlinden states it as if it were fact, but it actually does not stand up to scrutiny. I can only make one reply, but there's more. Read the article again, it says nothing about Tumblety:

The Ottawa Free Press (Canada)
19 November 1888

HAVE THEY GOT HIM NOW?
A Doctor Arrested by Scotland Yard Detectives

IS HE THE WHITECHAPEL FIEND?

He Resembles the Gentleman Seen With the Latest Victim

London, Nov.19--[Special]--Over London the Whitechapel murders wtill hang like a pall. Arrests of suspect have ben numerous, but one after another they have been discharged. Great importance, however is attached to an arrest made on Saturday. The Birmingham police have lately watched a man whom they suspected because of his habit of travelling to London on Saturdays. On the arrival of the train at Euston station he stepped out of the carriage briskly and was at once arrested and taken to Scotland Yard for examination. What gives particular force to the suspicion is that the prisoner is a doctor formerly holding a good position and large practice, but recently living in lodging houses. He greatly resembles the "gentleman" seen in company with the latest victim on the morning of the murder. Should he prove to be the criminal, the police will at once be rehabilitated.


So, how did Smith even know about Tumblety when Ottawa papers did not discuss Tumblety? You brush this off by saying newspapers in North America, but how did a man from Ottawa receive the US papers so quickly? If he did somehow find out about Tumblety, then why did he connect it with the Eutson Station story? We do know Tumblety hung out in Birmingham on the weekdays and went to London on the weekends. You conveniently failed to tell everyone about this? How did Smith know this in order to connect him with the Euston station arrest?

Wickerman, I have a number of additional discoveries about Smith that I will eventually be publishing about. First and foremost, you'll see Vanderlinden has mislead Tumblety nonexperts again. Sadly, at the moment I'm stuck at the side of a hottub and swimming pool (not a bad place to be), so if Vanderlinden replies, I guarantee a reply, but expect it in two weeks.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

It's not unknown, even today, for one group of police officers to be looking for someone who's been locked up by another group on a different matter.

You mean like Ostrog? Yes, but in this case it's the SAME group doing the jailing and the subsequent investigation. Tumblety was both jailed and investigated under the same name, and I would think checking the suspect for alibis would be a priority. Had Tums been able to alibi himself early on, none of the subsequent action would have taken place. I look forward to Simon's research as well, as I always do, but I would be quite surprised to find that Tumblety was in jail during the Kelly murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Awareness

Simon might be getting ahead of himself again. I find it extremely unlikely that if Tumblety was safely caged in jail at the time of the Kelly murder he could have gone on to become a suspect in the murders, particularly considering that all the investigators involved held fast to Mary Kelly as a Ripper victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

It's not unknown, even today, for one group of police officers to be looking for someone who's been locked up by another group on a different matter. It is just possible that Tumblety was alibi'd in this way and those investigating the murders were, for a while, completely unaware of it. Simon, I look forward to reading the results of your research.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Indeed

Jon,
Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning here. Isn't Bridewell simply saying that Tumblety as a possible Ripper could have been brought to Littlechild's attention and as it was outside his remit he passed it on to the murder team, thus the information being known to him first-hand? Because if he is, I don't see how that has any relevance to Tumblety's importance as a suspect or why we don't hear of him from other police sources.

Hi Paul,

That is indeed what I was saying.

Regards, Bridewell.