How do Suspects compare?

[Jonathan H]

I'm frankly astonished, rather than a little surprised, at thinking that Broad-Shouldered man, who is dressed differently and assaulting a woman in plain view, could be considered 'Jack the Ripper' at all?

Certainly the police did not think so, and went with Lawende who described a man, chatting smoothly with a prostitute (perhaps she was delighted to discover his gentlemanly manners and toff accent?) who was a generic fit for Druitt: a young Gentile.

Your description of Druitt's effects on his corpse is not relevant, as his body was not found near the East End after a murder.

You're missing the overall: the man described by Hutchinson was a Hebrew, arguably the rich sinister Jew straight out of Victorian music hall, whereas Lawende described a fair man -- and Druitt appears to be fair in high school.

Interesting that Macnaghten went to such lengths to obliterate Lawende and his sighting from the public record, starting in 1898.

Lawende was the key witness, who had been brought in to 'confront' Tom Sadler, a Gentile sailor (and maybe William Grant too, another Gentile sailor) and said 'no'. This is what he is reduced to by Mac.

From 'Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper', Chapter IV of Mac's memoirs, 1914:

'The madman started off in search of another victim, whom he found in Catherine Eddowes. This woman's body, very badly mutilated, was found in a dark corner of Mitre Square. On this occasion it is probable that the police officer on duty in the vicinity saw the murderer with his victim a few minutes before, but no satisfactory description was forthcoming. During this night an apron, on which bloody hands had been wiped, was found in Goulburn Street (situated, if my memory is correct, about half-way between Berners Street and Mitre Square). Hard by was a writing in chalk on the wall, to the effect that " the Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing." The apron gave no clue, and the chalk writing was obliterated by the order of a high police official, who was seemingly afraid that a riot against the Jews might be the outcome of this strange " writing on the wall:' This was the only clue ever left behind by the murderer.

So, he completely reversed himself from the version he hustled to his cronies, and returned to the notion of the official version -- all witnesses are out. Except for the first and only time, the graffiti was in.

[Wickerman]

As usual Tom Cullen, who argued for Druitt as the fiend based on Macnaghten's 'Aberconway' version, puts this very well in his polemical but masterly 'Autumn of Terror', 1965, p. 212:

Note the 'shabby appearance'--we are a long way here from the music-hall villain wearing astrakan-trimmed coat and the spats, the horseshoe-shaped tiepin, the massive gold watch-chain with the red stone set in its seal. and the 'fair complexion, fair moustache' out us in another wolrd from those other villians--the dark, swarthy, barber-surgeons of Russian or Polish origin'

Coincidently, among Druitt's effects were found a pair of kid gloves, a silver watch on a gold watch chain.
The 'red seal' may have been nothing more than the watch key hanging from the chain:


If Lawende's man was also BS-man, as some have speculated, you can rule out Druitt. I am a little surprised that anyone favouring Druitt as a suspect would lean towards Lawende's man as the best example.

Regards, Jon S.

[Jonathan H]

To Wickerman

You asked why I called Inspector Byrnes corrupt? Because that is what primary and secondary sources tell us.

So you shift the goal-posts of the argument and claim that he was not currupt by the standards of his time, or some such dodge away from your mistake.

Well, he was, as he was sacked due to the standards of his own time.

I especially like your blink-and-you'll-miss-it borrow from the toxic, US 'culture wars' about being a 'liberal' eg. being a bleeding-heart softie on street scum, as if rights and laws are exclusively leftist concerns. They are just as likely to be Tory/Conservative values defended at all costs -- especially when property and corporate rights are under challenge.

Of course, you've missed the overall.

That is, an American police chief with a turf and rep to protect has an inherent, self-serving bias about rejecting such a notion as Jack the Ripper as an American, as an Irishman, and as loose in his jurisdiction.

Could Byrnes have been completely sincere in his public opinion about Tumblety? Of course. But as a primary source, its values and limitations for reliability have to be weighed up against itself, and in comparison with other sources.

[Jonathan H]

To Bridewell

There was an issue of 'Ripperologist', a few years back, in which Andy Spallek published new photos of Druitt -- from the Winchester archive -- and they were a revelation as the latter seemed a much broader and more robust a figure than the classic pics would suggest.

If that was Druitt at 18, then one could imagine, as an athlete of some note, he looked pretty much the same at 31 -- but that's a guess of course.

Generically simply means of the same genre , eg. in this case age and race: an immigrant Jew is spotting a young Gentile. Well, that generically fits Druitt, not 'Kosminski' or Tumblety or Chapman (too Slavic-swarthy).

I don't really understand your other point?

To turn oneself into a 'proletarian' all Druitt has to do is dress down and adopt a working class accent -- if necessary. Why is that so difficult?

I also think that Druitt bears a generic resemblance to 'Knifeman' in Schwarz's rather different account to a newspaper.

As usual Tom Cullen, who argued for Druitt as the fiend based on Macnaghten's 'Aberconway' version, puts this very well in his polemical but masterly 'Autumn of Terror', 1965, p. 212:

'Probably the only reliable description of the Ripper was that furnished by Joseph Lawende, the commercial traveller, who saw Catherine Eddowes standing close to a man in Mitre Square just ten minutes before she was founf murdered. "It was bright moonlight, almost as light as day, and he saw them distinctly", remarks Major Henry Smith, the deputy City police commissioner, adding, "This was, without doubt, the murderer and his victim". Here is Lawende's description of the man: About 30 years of age, 5 ft. 9 in. in height, shabby appearance, fair complexion and having a small fair moustache, dressed in something like navy serge and wearing a cloth cap with with a peak. Note the 'shabby appearance'--we are a long way here from the music-hall villain wearing astrakan-trimmed coat and the spats, the horseshoe-shaped tiepin, the massive gold watch-chain with the red stone set in its seal. and the 'fair complexion, fair moustache' out us in another wolrd from those other villians--the dark, swarthy, barber-surgeons of Russian or Polish origin'

[Emphases Cullen's]

[Wickerman]

To Wickerman

Inspector Byrnes invented, or consolidated the 'third degree' method of interrogation (eg. torture) and fitted up God knows how many 'suspects'.

Jonathan, we are dealing with a period in history where law enforcement often had to fight fire with fire. Fitting-up a guilty suspect, though considered wrong by most liberal thinkers, was often the only means of bringing those certain criminals to justice.
Irish street gangs were the scourge of New York City in the 19th century. Inspr. Byrnes showed no lack of compulsion to act against the worst of the criminal classes, which incidently, more often than not included the Irish.

So, when Stewart writes:

As an Irish American, Byrnes, whose regime was reported to be corrupt would have had little sympathy for an English policeman but, one suspects, would favour a fellow Irish American who was of wealthy means.'

With all due respect to Stewart, this is merely modern opinion from our initial Tumblety author.
Byrnes has already established himself as much a tyrant against his own Irish kind, so the implication offered here carries no weight at all.

An you put faith in that source?

As opposed to a role-playing, lying charlatan like Tumblety, are you kidding?

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

We must therefore ask how common it was for the police in the LVP to detain people on suspicion. There would be court cases, I imagine, where such wrongful detention was discussed, and from which an insight into how common it was could be gained?

Only if you were wealthy enough to bring the action. There was no legal aid.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

We do not have an exact measurement of Montague Druitt's height, but in Winchester photos he appears to be of medium stature and of medium build, with strong shoulders by the time he was 18 or so, and with an emerging moustache. He generically resembles Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor'.

Do you mean that he resembled Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' when he was 18, or that he also did so when he was 31?



"Age 30, ht 5ft. 7 or 8in. comp. fair, fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot round neck, appearance of a sailor".

"Generically":
1. Relating to or descriptive of an entire group or class
2. Biology Of or relating to a genus.
3.
a. Not having a brand name: generic soap.
b. Of or being a drug sold under or identified by its official nonproprietary or chemical name.
4. Grammar Specifying neither masculine nor feminine gender

I don't actually understand your use of "generically" in this context. Druitt was an upper-middle class man. I don't see how he can generically resemble a working-class sailor. I think Druitt, in whatever clothing, would look like what he was - a toff. I can see your argument for Druitt as JtR, but not as the man seen by Lawende.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

London Dynamite Plot

Trying desperately to recall where I saw it, but wasn't there the case of the artist detained whilst trying to board the Isle of Wight ferry and held for three days?

Dave

[PaulB]

That may have been how it was meant to be, but that's not how it was in practise. Even as late as the 1970's it was not unknown for a solicitor to arrive at the front door of one police station only for his client to be escorted out of the back door to another one. Solicitors sometimes had to resort to writs of habeas corpus in order to compel the police to either charge or release their clients. The Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984 wasn't brought in on a whim; it was legislation to deal with a problem. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation the police could, and did historically, detain people for considerable lengths of time without charge. If they thought they had the Ripper they would, I suspect, have run the risk of litigation rather than release him, once caught.

Tumblety, as a wealthy man, might have been able to secure his release by employing a solicitor to bring pressure to bear and, if necessary, apply for a writ of habeas corpus. However, there was no obligation on the police to notify anyone of a person's arrest and, in practise, a request for legal representation would probably have fallen on deaf ears. That's not how it should have been, but I would suggest that's how it was.

Regards, Bridewell.

Well, that may all be true and I'm sure it is, but the fact is that Anderson's bete noir was that comparisons with foreign forces did not take into account the constraints habeus corpus placed on the British police, hence his claim that the police often knew a suspect was guilty but lacked the evidence to prove it, whereas foreign forces could detain the suspect indefinitely while they worked up their evidence. We must therefore ask how common it was for the police in the LVP to detain people on suspicion. There would be court cases, I imagine, where such wrongful detention was discussed, and from which an insight into how common it was could be gained?

[PaulB]

In order for extradition proceedings to have been commenced for an offence of murder.

1. A written request would have to have been made with the american authorities to arrest Tumblety

2.It would have been the case that they would have to prove to The American Autorities that there was a prima facie case against Tumblety. That would have to have to have entailed presenting the american authorites with copies of signed statements of witnesses in support of the evidence to actually show a prima facie case.

Hearsay would not have been acceptable

Thanks for the confirmation, Trevor. That's what I said.

[Bridewell]

Er, Jon, they could only be detained for a specified time, then they had to be released or charged and brought before a magistrate.

That may have been how it was meant to be, but that's not how it was in practise. Even as late as the 1970's it was not unknown for a solicitor to arrive at the front door of one police station only for his client to be escorted out of the back door to another one. Solicitors sometimes had to resort to writs of habeas corpus in order to compel the police to either charge or release their clients. The Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984 wasn't brought in on a whim; it was legislation to deal with a problem. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation the police could, and did historically, detain people for considerable lengths of time without charge. If they thought they had the Ripper they would, I suspect, have run the risk of litigation rather than release him, once caught.

Tumblety, as a wealthy man, might have been able to secure his release by employing a solicitor to bring pressure to bear and, if necessary, apply for a writ of habeas corpus. However, there was no obligation on the police to notify anyone of a person's arrest and, in practise, a request for legal representation would probably have fallen on deaf ears. That's not how it should have been, but I would suggest that's how it was.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Jon
'Tumblety could not have been wanted for murder.'

Precisely. But Tumblety was only suspected, so on what grounds could he have been arrested and extradited?

Had the British police got anything solid on which to request Tumblety's arrest and extradition, they'd presumably have charged him themselves. Byrnes was stating the truth, but I don't see how it proves that the British police didn't suspect Tumblety, or that they weren't actively pursuing those suspicions. I mean, they had notorious woman hater who claimed medical experience who was apparently in Whitechapel and maybe visiting the murder scenes. That would make him a good suspect, but I doubt it would be sufficient to request extradition.

In order for extradition proceedings to have been commenced for an offence of murder.

1. A written request would have to have been made with the american authorities to arrest Tumblety

2.It would have been the case that they would have to prove to The American Autorities that there was a prima facie case against Tumblety. That would have to have to have entailed presenting the american authorites with copies of signed statements of witnesses in support of the evidence to actually show a prima facie case.

Hearsay would not have been acceptable

[PaulB]

Paul,
Everything you state is quite plausible.Yes the Ripper search had closed by the time of Thomson's appointment,but it must be bourne in mind that the Ripper had never been caught,and could be still alive,so there was reason why Thomson could have been interested.The author of the article I have mentioned,Alice Monaghan,might have been influenced by earlier writings,but it would be unwise to conclude that she was.Possible that her source was more plausible than Mccormick.

Hi Harry,
There is no reason why Thompson couldn't have been interested in the Jack the Ripper case, but the evidence doesn't suggest that he was. The Whitechapel murders were a quarter of a century old by the time Basil Thompson succeeded Macnaghten, Britain was heading towards a catastrophic war and Thompson was preoccupied with espionage and other threats to national stability. After the war he was preoccupied with Bolsheviks. Eve when writing about Scotland Yard's history, he only mentions Jack the Ripper in passing, which doesn't suggest a great interest.

Alice Monaghan may have other sources for Pedachenko, but we can't assume that she did. Pedachenko isn't known outside Le Queux, so he or McCormick are her likely source until it can be demonstrated otherwise. If it can be demonstrated then that would be great. I am not familiar with the article, however. When and where was it published?

[PaulB]

Thankyou Paul, yes I was aware that they cannot hold someone indefinitely, but I assumed it to be 24-48 hrs, afterall, it doesn't take days or weeks to establish the whereabouts of the suspect on the nights in question.




I agree, but this also means he still is "suspected of involvement in murder", which also means he could be "arrested on suspicion" in any country where Britian has an agreement for extradition.
Thats really what I'm getting at, the comments by Byrnes are crucial for us to understand the legal position the New York police were in.
As I outlined in my previous post, Byrnes opinions argues very strongly, almost conclusively, that Tumblety could not have been wanted for murder.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

Hi Jon
'Tumblety could not have been wanted for murder.'

Precisely. But Tumblety was only suspected, so on what grounds could he have been arrested and extradited?

Had the British police got anything solid on which to request Tumblety's arrest and extradition, they'd presumably have charged him themselves. Byrnes was stating the truth, but I don't see how it proves that the British police didn't suspect Tumblety, or that they weren't actively pursuing those suspicions. I mean, they had notorious woman hater who claimed medical experience who was apparently in Whitechapel and maybe visiting the murder scenes. That would make him a good suspect, but I doubt it would be sufficient to request extradition.

[Jonathan H]

To Wickerman

Inspector Byrnes invented, or consolidated the 'third degree' method of interrogation (eg. torture) and fitted up God knows how many 'suspects'. He was purged by the Protestant, wealthy, reformer Theodore Roosevelt in his attempts to clean up the New York police, in 1895.

I also quote from one of the greatest essays ever written on this subject, an excellent secondary source: 'A Slouch-Hatted Yank' by Stewart P. Evans:

'It is recorded elsewhere that Inspector Andrews of Scotland Yard, who had recently escorted a Canadian prisoner to Toronto, arrived from Montreal in New York during December in an effort to locate Tumblety. The then head of the New York Detective Department was Inspector Thomas Byrnes. As an Irish American, Byrnes, whose regime was reported to be corrupt would have had little sympathy for an English policeman but, one suspects, would favour a fellow Irish American who was of wealthy means.'

An you put faith in that source?

We do not have an exact measurement of Montague Druitt's height, but in Winchester photos he appears to be of medium stature and of medium build, with strong shoulders by the time he was 18 or so, and with an emerging moustache. He generically resembles Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor'.