Did The Victims Carry Weapons?

[Errata]

I'm aware of the various theories as to how, physically, Victorian street-walkers conducted their business. Can we be sure that penetration from the rear was invariably the "line of attack", so to speak?
There is nothing to stop a prostitute from saying, "Yes, I will, dearie, but not from behind until they catch Leather Apron. You can't be too careful these days".

Yes, they were desperate, but they were also streetwise, surely?

Other positions, especially face to face typically require props, lying down, or a fairly strong male. Women are typically shorter than men, and lining up vertical slot with a horizontal tab is not easy. She would have to perch on something to make up the height difference, they would have to roll around on the ground, or he would have to hold her off the ground in place. And while all are possible, the first and third cannot be guaranteed, and the second ruins your clothes, and they clearly didn't have a lot of cash to spend in that area. From behind works because it can be done anywhere by anyone, no props or physical fitness required.

[Wickerman]

Funny you mention this, as I've been talking about this case last week with some friends. As far as I recall, there were 2 stabbed victims, one old, also strangled, one young, only stabbed. By the by and as a short highjack Wickerman, who do you think commited these murders, De Salvo or Nassar? I would trust F. L. Bailey about as far as...he could throw me? :-) Look what he did in the OJ Simpson case.

Hi Maria, well I understood De Salvo was the Green Man burglar, but the Green Man was not a killer. I've always suspected Nasser knew more about these murders, maybe even coaching De Salvo in many of the details.
I did read somewhere that George Nasser was picked out of an ID line-up by a witness in the Strangler murders.

Yes, I would not be surprised if F. Lee Bailey did not also play a role in this whole affair, this was his ticket to fame.

Anyway, not to digress...

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Wow, fascinating and somehow ironic about Nichols favoring knives in earlier life.

Other positions, especially face to face, typically require props

Fences. Jane Coram has talked about this.

I've always suspected Nasser knew more about these murders, maybe even coaching De Salvo in many of the details. I did read somewhere that George Nasser was picked out of an ID line-up by a witness in the Strangler murders.
Yes, I would not be surprised if F. Lee Bailey did not also play a role in this whole affair, this was his ticket to fame. Anyway, not to digress...

As a really quick digress, that's precisely what I've read about Nasser, and it appears that F. Lee Bailey was in haste to "establish" De Salvo as the Strangler. Still, (and as in Ripperology) different books on the case present different angles.

[Errata]

Fences. Jane Coram has talked about this.

Fences? Clearly this is discussion I missed. If you could give me a rough outline I would appreciate it, since at the moment I can't tell how a fence would be more helpful than a wall.

[mariab]

A fence bounces. (At least a Victorian one does.)

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

I assume that the meaning of "lost sight of" is that while Polly was working as a domestic servant, the Guardian maybe visited her once in a while to keep her on the straight and narrow, and the Guardian attributes Polly's relapse to the Guardian's absence?

Hi Robert,
It's the same old story isn't it? Workhouse Guardian/Temperance Society worker/Salvation Army member/Preacher at Millbank/City Missionary...all on the verge of saving these women but just turned their back for a moment?

[Robert]

Hi Debs

Polly was very stupid to steal the clothes and go back on the booze and the streets, but I can sort of see what was going on in her mind - position of domestic servant and, er, that's it - "like crawling up a drainpipe till you die" was I think how one of HG Wells's characters described it.

[Errata]

A fence bounces. (At least a Victorian one does.)

okay...now that I have this REALLY unfortunate image in my head, how does that resolve the height difference?

[mariab]

I'm almost tempted to say, you need to get out more Errata. ;-)

[Errata]

I'm almost tempted to say, you need to get out more Errata. ;-)

No, I get the presumed posture required, but that still takes strength. Which isn't always there, and I gotta tell you I have a hard time picturing a woman the size of Annie Chapman in a frontal piggy back ride with some guy supporting her weight fully and you know what? Never mind. There are some things you can't unsee, and most of them just flashed through my head. I surrender.

[curious4]

I'm aware of the various theories as to how, physically, Victorian street-walkers conducted their business. Can we be sure that penetration from the rear was invariably the "line of attack", so to speak?
There is nothing to stop a prostitute from saying, "Yes, I will, dearie, but not from behind until they catch Leather Apron. You can't be too careful these days".

Yes, they were desperate, but they were also streetwise, surely?

Hello Bridewell,

I am convinced that the "reverse" position would have been impractical for the victims. Apart from all the layers and layers of clothing which would have had to be put out of the way, this position would be most comfortable with hands on knees for some support, and with the head positioned against the wall, they would be at severe risk of concussion with an enthusiastic customer. Hands in front of head against the wall? They would have to arch the back in a very uncomfortable way (tried this - on my own lol) and who is to hold up the clothing? Presumably the client would need the use of at least one hand? Much more practical to stand facing each other and just raise the skirts at the front. I fail to see how a womanīs legs would be any longer bending down, so presumably said customer would have to bend a little at the knees anyway. I once saw an interview with a giant married to an average sized girl, and when asked the obvious question, he replied that "God, in his infinite wisdom put the important bits in the middle."


If anyone were likely to adopt the "hands, knees and a a bompsy-daisy" position, it would have been the so-called Park prostitutes, who would also have had the additional option of supporting themselves against a park bench. These women were old, diseased, toothless and not good to look upon, so I can imagine their customers preferred not to look at their faces, while Jackīs victims still had the vestiges of good looks left - comparatively speaking.

Way off thread here, hope I will be forgiven. As for weapons, I donīt think any would have helped - they obviously trusted Jack and the attacks were quick and sudden. Traditional womenīs weapons through the ages? Half a brick in a handbag was apparently popular in the 1940īs, hatpins in the Edwardian era (I bought an antique one for my niece - it was almost a foot long and VERY sharp - lethal) and the traditional pepperpot.

Best wishes,
C4

[harry]

Just yesterday I read of a case in which a woman had pulled a penknife from her stocking.Folded of course.

[Wickerman]

In addition to this the hapless women of the streets are themselves armed with knives, and two poor creatures this morning showed a reporter two formidable bowie-knives, which they would unquestionably use upon any man who attempted violence of a deadly character.
Evening News, 14 Sept. 1888.

Another woman, in reply to a similar question, said, "Afraid? No, I'm armed, Look 'ere," and she drew a knife from her pocket. She further declared, "I'm not the only one armed; there's plenty more carry knives now."
North Eastern Daily Gazette, 3 Oct. 1888.

Some Unfortunates did carry vicious weapons, maybe Tabram had carried one. Equally then, this maybe the source of the 'dagger' which was used on her?

Regards, Jon S.

[K-453]

Wikipedia is your friend - look for 'sex positions'.

"In the basic standing position, both partners stand facing each other and engage in vaginal sex. In order to match heights, the shorter partner can, for instance, stand on a stair or wear high heels. It may be easier to maintain solid thrusts if the woman has her back to a wall."

Reading the second sentence, I thought of the steps leading into the yard of No. 29 ...


About carrying weapons: Maybe the victims did - and Jack took them away with him!
He was rummaging their pockets, and we don't know what he took away, as it didn't appear in the lists of belongings made at the post mortems.

[mariab]

maybe Tabram had carried one. Equally then, this maybe the source of the 'dagger' which was used on her?

What makes you conclude that Tabram might have carried a knife Wickerman? Just the fact that allegedly 2 knifes were used on her? Are we completely at 100% sure that the "dagger" was not the same knife as before, used with more blunt force to penetrate her sternum/heart? (Though I tend to accept it as a fact that 2 different weapons were used if the contemporary docs insisted so much.) By the by, interesting pics you have posted in the other threads about the so called Victorian "bayonette", which looks completely like an (attachable) dagger to me. I'm more familiar with French bayonettes from the French Revolution and Napoleonic era, which are long, thin, and distinctive.

Wikipedia is your friend - look for 'sex positions'.

Gee, it's a sad day when one's required to learn about sex in Wikipedia! Makes me wonder what the hell I'm doing on a serial killer site with the nerds. LOL.