Did The Victims Carry Weapons?

[Errata]

Hi Errata,



yeah, I think the Bowie knives story holds no water. As you already mentioned, real Bowies are quite large, as we can see in this well-known picture of "Wild" Bill Hickok:



There are smaller versions as well that have a blade length of about 6 inches but even those would be difficult to conceal for a 19th century woman.

That's why I go with a combination of a) and d). Maybe the jourmalist responsible for the article indeed did interview some East End women with knives and then simply added a bit of colour to the story to make it more interesting. "Formidable bowie knives" sounds much cooler than, say, "table knives stolen from a doss house kitchen", after all.

Regards,

Boris

Yeah, I'm actually pretty sure that's not a bowie knife. Bowie knives have a cross guard on the hilt and a clip point blade. Really it's the cross guard that blows it for concealment, because it gets tangled in clothing.

Hickock appears to be carrying a giant carving knife. I have never in my life seen a Bowie knife that long, and typically Bowie knives are a bit wider. That thing qualifies as a short sword. Although to be fair, that could be a custom piece that is an altered Bowie knife, more suited for cutting up large animals. Like buffalo.

Although the knife Bowie uses in the remake of The Alamo also isn't right. The original Bowie knife looked like your modern carving knives, but wider and with a cross guard.

The other problem with the story is that Bowie knives as a commercially available thing was pretty new. It wasn't until after the Alamo that people started selling them. So they weren't really massed produced until the 1840's, and as close combat knives that were necessary in the American west, they wouldn't have been terribly popular in England until the Wild West fever hit them, and that was about a decade before Buffalo Bill started touring Europe in 1887. A new type of knife that was maybe only 10 years old would not be available to prostitutes.

[bolo]

Errata,

the back of the tip area of the knife in the Hickok picture is not as pronounced as in other variants but the typical elements (soft back with stop to counter attacks, long and very strong blade, sharp "v" tip, etc.) are there.

Maybe it's an early version or a Bowie-type knife, the design was much imitated.

Anyway, I think we both agree that East End prostitutes probably did not carry long-bladed weapons like that around so the article may be a colourful fabrication.

Regards,

Boris

[Cogidubnus]

A "lady" of my aquaintance once showed me a dagger type knife approx 6 inches long, complete with cross guard, which she wore tucked down the top of her (just below the knee) boot...

Dave

[Errata]

A "lady" of my aquaintance once showed me a dagger type knife approx 6 inches long, complete with cross guard, which she wore tucked down the top of her (just below the knee) boot...

Dave

Sure, with knee boots it's easy. Try it with ankle boots with one inch heels.

[Wickerman]

yeah, I think the Bowie knives story holds no water.

So what do we have here then, another one throwing the "liar" card down?


The term "Bowie-knife" covers a wide range of large knives, there never was a particular design, or style. Its more of a colloquial term than anything else.
Just a large knife!

Jon

[Cogidubnus]

Kinky boots

Errata:

Sorry I'm a newbie...please educate me...

Sure, with knee boots it's easy. Try it with ankle boots with one inch heel

Which of our victims were wearing which?

Dave

[Errata]

Errata:

Sorry I'm a newbie...please educate me...



Which of our victims were wearing which?

Dave

Well probably none wore either. Victorian women's shoes are brutal, but these ladies likely had the more working class ankle boot, which kind of looks like a short combat boot with a slightly higher heel. Half inch maybe. At least those who weren't wearing men's boots, which you still can't stick a decent sized blade in.

[bolo]

Hi Jon,

So what do we have here then, another one throwing the "liar" card down?

...and again I stumble over some English phrase that I picked up somewhere but should have back-checked before use... with "the story holds no water" I want to say that the idea of an East End woman carrying a genuine Bowie on her person (concealed, even) does not sound very plausible.

I do not call the author of the article a liar but wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that he was or at least fell for some tall story of a couple of East End women who tried to bolster themselves up.

Just wanted to talk about Bowies and there we are now...

Regards,

Boris

[Robert]

We have two sketches of victims' boots. One is Eddowes :

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=35&pos=7

and the other one is the Kelly sketch showing her boots before the fire, which I can't locate just now.

[Robert]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4100

[Robert]

I can imagine women being quite clever in creating pockets in which to hide knives or other weapons. The trouble is, the more carefully hidden the weapon, the more difficult it would be to access in an emergency. Also, considering that these were women who were given to falling down drunk, let alone being knocked down by thugs, having the knife sheathed would seem to be an important safety requirement.

[Errata]

I can imagine women being quite clever in creating pockets in which to hide knives or other weapons. The trouble is, the more carefully hidden the weapon, the more difficult it would be to access in an emergency. Also, considering that these were women who were given to falling down drunk, let alone being knocked down by thugs, having the knife sheathed would seem to be an important safety requirement.

Well, the beauty of the bowie knife is that you can still stab with it even it's pretty dull. But sheathing isn't so much the issue as much as where on earth do you put the thing? Bowie knives blades are 6 inches long at least, and about 2 1/2 inches wide at least. From tip to pommel, it would have been about the size of my forearm. So not small. Clearly it can't be tucked in a boot. And it can't be tucked in the cleavage, assuming the cut of the dress even allowed for such a thing. Strapping it to the back is out, because while you can do that with some blades, you can't do it with a blade that has a cross guard. Strapping it to the thigh is possible, but in order to be able to draw it quickly they would have had to strap it upside down, which means it would fall out on a regular basis, since snaps weren't a thing yet so there weren't security sheaths. And wearing it around the waist over the clothes means it's not concealed, and under the clothes means it's unreachable. It's too big for a wrist sheath, assuming such things were available then, and I don't think they were. Carrying it in a purse is certainly possible, but most of these women didn't have purses. And Victorian purses were tiny, so really we are looking at some kind of large bag that would certainly look odd.

If these women had knives, they weren't bowie knives, and likely they weren't kitchen knives. Bayonets of the period tended towards the short sword design, and daggers just wouldn't be terribly available. If I had to guess, I'd say a couple of women got their hands on some small hunting knives. Maybe 5 or 6 inches from pommel to tip. To a citified London reporter who had only read tales of the wild west, they could look like a bowie knife. It's not something that would be available to any streetwalker, because they just don't end up in pawn shops and the like, but a few could trickle down to the neighborhood.

[Robert]

Errata, I assume that Victorian society was too traditionalist to have devised a "ladylike" knife? Something short and thin, the knife parallel of the tiny handguns that women used to carry in their handbags in America.

I assume also that among poor women, long fingernails were hopelessly impractical.

All in all, they weren't well defended at all.

[DVV]

Emma Smith was dangerous with a nunchaku.

[Errata]

Errata, I assume that Victorian society was too traditionalist to have devised a "ladylike" knife? Something short and thin, the knife parallel of the tiny handguns that women used to carry in their handbags in America.

I assume also that among poor women, long fingernails were hopelessly impractical.

All in all, they weren't well defended at all.

No. They really weren't.