Evidence of Recent Connexion

[lynn cates]

go west young man

Hello Errata. I completely agree. If one were looking for THAT, one might try the high priced brothels of West London.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

improper behaviour

Hello C4. I completely agree. Someone zigged when s/he should have zagged.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Hello Errata.

This is part of an ongoing discussion. If there is good evidence that the "ladies of the East End" were noted in that regard, I'd love to see it.

Thus far, however, I've found none. Interesting thought, though.

Cheers.
LC

This post applies to Ruby as well, It just seemed better to combine it.

I have no evidence whatsoever of the East End Unfortunates performing oral sex on customers. There is the occasional anecdotal evidence of this service being available in brothels, oddly enough at a higher price than conventional intercourse. Personally I think it is a reflection of it being considered kinky and outre, but that's just me. And I'm afraid I can't cite any sources right now, since these things originally came up in a very odd research project on the repeated rises and falls of feminism for school about 10 years ago. If I can find the paper, I can cite the sources. I'll look.

Made for some damned uncomfortable reading while sitting across the table from my adviser, a Baptist minister.

I honestly do not believe that the average wife of any station would have been willing to perform oral sex on their husband, despite the advantages. The problem with Victorian times is Victorian morality. Most women did not even remove all of their clothing to engage in sex. And there would certainly be a paradox in introducing oral sex into a marriage. At the time, it was not a common practice (sex being solely for the production of offspring according to the morals of the day) and a spouse would have a tough time explaining where exactly he or she got the information on such an act. A wife could not introduce the subject, as her husband would think she picked it up from another man, and a husband could hardly tell his wife that a hooker did this great thing and she should do it too.

And certainly in the higher stations there was a certain expectation that men would would have other sexual partners, whether it be a mistress, a married woman of similar station, or a prostitute. As best I can tell, wives became upset if their husband fell in love with another woman, had an illegitimate child, or spent an undue amount of money of the other woman. So while fidelity was as prized as it is today, equally today's "boys will be boys" attitude still reigned. A few women even expressed relief in their diaries when their husbands found a mistress, so that they would be released from overly frequent and onerous marital duties.

Does any of this mean that these women offered this service? Not a bit. I realized I sounded certain in my previous posts, and I am by no means certain. It's a possibility. Personally I think they didn't, as there is no mention of staining on the knees of the skirts, which their should be if they did in fact perform oral sex on customers. I do think that they cleaned themselves up after each customer. Catherine Eddowes was carrying squares of cloth which may have been for just such a purpose. And while I am sure that doctors could spot semen stains on clothing, I'm by no means convinced they could spot stains in an area soaked in blood.

By the by curious: Sperm don't live long enough outside the body for that to be possible.

[curious4]

Hello C4. that story reminds me of several stories about sailors returning home after an eleven or twelve month hiatus only to discover they are dads.

Who knows all the ins and outs (oops, poor choice of words?) regarding human gestation?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes it does have the flavour of an urban myth, doesn´t it. But, if they came from a small isolated community of blue-eyed, blond swedes, where everyone knew everyone else, as is still often the case in Sweden, if it could be proved that the wife never left home and that there were no casual passers-by, and if they lived in the far south, near to Denmark, then perhaps. This was twenty to thirty years ago, so no dna. It was really believed to have happened. Personally, I think there might have been a more colourful ancestry in the family somewhere way back. And if not true - served him right!

Cheers,
C4

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Errata;200040][QUOTE]Again, that applies to vaginal intercourse. Which is an act a good many men could get a home, while being "frenched" (oral sex) was not something they could get at home[/QUOTE

I'm sorry, Errata -I don't believe you.

Wives at the time risked death everytime that they fell pregnant, and men
(being primarily responsible for financing the family) risked extra worries and pressure on their general lives by having an extra mouth to feed.

I just can't think ( since I don't believe that people at such a short distance from us in historical terms were that much different from us), that they couldn't have worked out for themselves that 'frenching' (I'm laughing because I live in France) was mutually beneficial.

I'm quite sure that the wives would have wanted to avoid their blokes having to resort to prostitutes (and not only to economise the 'Housekeeping').

Similarily, my logic tells me that Steven Russel's 'Doctors' were men (at least in the vast majority -someone will be bound to give me an exception), and as such the concept of sneaking a quiet 'wank' was not alien to them...in which case they would have been eagle eyed in spotting semen traces on clothing.

Maria -The Channel being short and well plied (no pun intended), I'm certain that the French wouldn't have ever kept their secrets to themselves.

[lynn cates]

gestation

Hello C4. that story reminds me of several stories about sailors returning home after an eleven or twelve month hiatus only to discover they are dads.

Who knows all the ins and outs (oops, poor choice of words?) regarding human gestation?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

I believe I was the first one to mention sponge PLUS vinegar, in a previous post - from the horse´s mouth (if you ll excuse the expression). I was told about it by an old lady from the Victorian era, who said that prostitutes were not the only ones to use this method - her mother had also been in service and had told her of the "shocking" behaviour of the times - her ladies did not just dampen their muslin frocks so they their bodies would show through, they also used the sponge and vinegar method.

As for cleaning themselves up I remember a news report some years ago about a swedish woman giving birth to one black and one white twin (in all innocence) - it turned out that her husband had had sex with a prostitute in Denmark and had then come home to have sex with his wife with a little reminder of the previous customer on him, so I would say that they didn´t clean themselves much afterwards. It´s true, honest!

Regards,
C4

[lynn cates]

skill sets

Hello Errata.

"Which is an act a good many men could get a home, while being "frenched" (oral sex) was not something they could get at home, and prostitutes made more money performing that act than standard intercourse. So they may have had several customers, none of whom were in a position of leaving evidence of it on the thighs."

This is part of an ongoing discussion. If there is good evidence that the "ladies of the East End" were noted in that regard, I'd love to see it.

Thus far, however, I've found none. Interesting thought, though.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Spongebob talk

That's very interesting stuff about the sponges (I didn't know about that) so thanks for that information. Although none of the post-mortem exams mentions sponges. Again, I wonder how good the doctors of the time were at spotting semen traces. {...} But it still seems odd to me that in no case was recent sexual activity noted.

The sponge usage is corroborated by Jane Coram and Archaic, experts in Victorian clothing and accessories.
Since Victorian medicine was in capacity to conduct histologic examinations with the organs (per microscope) to establish the presence of alcohol/malt, there is no reason why they wouldn't have been able to establish the presence of semen as well. I suspect that the reason they didn't look for such is their Victorian mentality. It appears that the French acted quite differently pertaining to such. Recently I've read Alexandre Lacassagne's handwrittten notes on the Vacher case, and they're as explicit as it would be expected today.

Perhaps Jack wasn't a sexual killer.
One point relevant to Kosminski: IF Kosminski was the killer, maybe we shouldn't expect any evidence of connection - he could simply have been out of fuel.

Though clearly there was no time and intent for an actual sexual encounter, not even with MJK, a forensic psychologist would still call these crimes “sexual“, since their orientation/intent are such (investigatory and necro-sadist). The single Ripper-related crime featuring something ressembling actual sexual activity is Emma Smith.
The Kozminsky (and the Spongebob) commentary cracked me up.

[Errata]

Of course, in Polly and Annie's cases, they were looking for clients but perhaps not finding them.

Cheers.
LC

Again, that applies to vaginal intercourse. Which is an act a good many men could get a home, while being "frenched" (oral sex) was not something they could get at home, and prostitutes made more money performing that act than standard intercourse. So they may have had several customers, none of whom were in a position of leaving evidence of it on the thighs.

Personally, i think they at least wiped down after every incidence of intercourse. Walking around with semen leaking slowly down your leg cannot possibly be comfortable, and it's an easy remedy to wipe off using an inner skirt.

Also, since these women would not have been aroused, and therefore would not have had the benefit of lubrication, they would incur any number of tiny tears in both the internal and external genital areas. And to be blunt, semen burns when in contact with those tiny tears. Not desperately painful, but enough the you would sort of scrub at it the way you scrub at a tiny cut when soap gets in it.

Semen bleaches too. True Story.

[Robert]

Perhaps Jack wasn't a sexual killer.

One point relevant to Kosminski : IF Kosminski was the killer, maybe we shouldn't expect any evidence of connection - he could simply have been out of fuel.

[lynn cates]

hunting

Hello Steven.

"But it still seems odd to me that in no case was recent sexual activity noted."

Of course, in Polly and Annie's cases, they were looking for clients but perhaps not finding them.

Cheers.
LC

[Steven Russell]

What's noticeable is that Nichols could not hold on to her money every time she had a “break“ on the evening of her death, while Stride apparently was more effective.

I've always assumed that Polly spent her earnings on booze. So did she clean herself up after each transaction or only the one time before she met Jack? That's very interesting stuff about the sponges (I didn't know about that) so thanks for that information. Although none of the post-mortem exams mentions sponges.

Again, I wonder how good the doctors of the time were at spotting semen traces. I can't think how to put this more delicately but maybe Jack came in his trousers.

But it still seems odd to me that in no case was recent sexual activity noted.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Trevor Marriott]

Not to be truly revolting, but in at least two cases the vaginal canal would have been so compromised after the mutilations that "conventional" intercourse would simply have resulted in penetration of the surrounding tissues. And if he was fine with that, there is no reason for him to confine his sexual stimulation to the vaginal canal. Ted Bundy used the severed rotting arm of a victim to masturbate, using the crook of the elbow to provide friction. So truly disgusting sexual behaviors certainly happen.

I don't think we can assume that he had no sexual contact with the victims. I think we can safely assume he had no vaginal intercourse with these women, but I cannot imagine that a doctor in Victorian England would check the throat wounds or the abdominal cavity for traces of semen. And it might actually answer a few questions about the nature of the throat slashes and the treatment of the intestines.

Despite the availability of contraceptive sponges, I don't think these women had the money to spend on them. And if sponges had been present in these women, in would have been noted in the autopsy. I think they were actually still illegal in 1888, so while it may not have seemed out of place to doctor performing an autopsy, it would have been evidence of illegal activity, which rates a mention in a report. And we certainly aren't past the point where men aren't outraged that women might not want to bear their children. So a certain amount of disgust would be expected if a sponge was present.

Well the case is solved now the killer has been identified Spongebob

[Errata]

Not to be truly revolting, but in at least two cases the vaginal canal would have been so compromised after the mutilations that "conventional" intercourse would simply have resulted in penetration of the surrounding tissues. And if he was fine with that, there is no reason for him to confine his sexual stimulation to the vaginal canal. Ted Bundy used the severed rotting arm of a victim to masturbate, using the crook of the elbow to provide friction. So truly disgusting sexual behaviors certainly happen.

I don't think we can assume that he had no sexual contact with the victims. I think we can safely assume he had no vaginal intercourse with these women, but I cannot imagine that a doctor in Victorian England would check the throat wounds or the abdominal cavity for traces of semen. And it might actually answer a few questions about the nature of the throat slashes and the treatment of the intestines.

Despite the availability of contraceptive sponges, I don't think these women had the money to spend on them. And if sponges had been present in these women, in would have been noted in the autopsy. I think they were actually still illegal in 1888, so while it may not have seemed out of place to doctor performing an autopsy, it would have been evidence of illegal activity, which rates a mention in a report. And we certainly aren't past the point where men aren't outraged that women might not want to bear their children. So a certain amount of disgust would be expected if a sponge was present.