Evidence of Recent Connexion

[lynn cates]

which century?

Hello Abby.

"Re: oral sex in Victorian times-Even though in Victorian times society may have made oral sex taboo, I am sure it was fairly common."

Why so sure? Are you extrapolating from the 21st C?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

As far as I am aware, none of the doctors in any of the cases reported finding evidence of recent sexual activity in any of the WM victims. I would be pleased to be corrected if this is wrong. Presumably we are talking about semen traces here.

Traditionally, this has been interpreted to mean that Jack did not have sex with his victims but achieved "release" through the mutilations (hence the need to find another victim after having been disturbed in Dutfield's Yard).

Now - we know that all of the canonical victims were either habitual or occasional prostitutes and it seems likely that some of them serviced more than one client on the same night that they were killed.

This, to me, throws up several questions:
1) Was it difficult for the doctors of the time to detect semen traces?
2) Did the ladies clean themselves up after each transaction?
3) Did they only offer services which were unlikely to cause semen to be transferred to their bodies?

I have not researched Victorian contraception methods but I wonder how prostitutes of that era avoided unwanted pregnancies. I would suggest that they kept vaginal penetration to the minimum. Could it be that Jack was turned on in the conventional way and then carried out his revolting deeds afterwards?

Best wishes,
Steve.

Hi Steve
Interesting topic.

This, to me, throws up several questions:
1) Was it difficult for the doctors of the time to detect semen traces?
2) Did the ladies clean themselves up after each transaction?
3) Did they only offer services which were unlikely to cause semen to be transferred to their bodies?


1) probably
2)probably
3)probably not


Could it be that Jack was turned on in the conventional way and then carried out his revolting deeds afterwards?

He may have been sexually aroused while commiting the murders/mutilations but probably used the trophies afterwards while wanking. I dont think there was enough time at the murder scene for sexual activity with his victims alive or dead.


To various posters
Re: oral sex in Victorian times-Eventhough in Victorian times society may have made oral sex taboo, I am sure it was fairly common. Probably made it that much funner!

And no one has to neccessarily "learn" how/if to have oral sex-it will come naturally when in the throes of passion. heck even monkeys do it.

[mariab]

superannuated

It's a really lame joke Lynn, but a non native English speaker could easily misunderstand “adult“ as the opposite of childrens' movies.
- I love childrens' movies.
- And I prefer adult.

Apologies for the silly joke.

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Maria. Excellent suggestion. (Consulting Tom, I mean--not the adult stuff. Adult is one thing; superannuated, another.) I would like to do many possible scenarios in one fell swoop.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Oh OK, Lynn.
Profound apologies, but these days I've no time whatsoever to look up into the “mappology“ of Dutfields Yard, too busy with Schwartz, the WVC, Campbell/Rocker, and the Danish stuff, not to mention tons of bureaucracy plus my own work.
If you asked Tom?

(ADT is AdultDVDTalk. I was simply joking about your “double-ended“ post #43. Apologies.)

[lynn cates]

scenarios

Hello Maria. No, for once no joke. I would like to clear up some differences on forensics involved with the Stride killing. I am thinking of:

1. Martin Fido's "between the gate and club wall."

2. Tom's "against the club wall just west of gate."

3. My "heading east towards gate."

(What is ADT?)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I've always imagined that the gossip surrounding the friendship with John Brown was just that -gossip.

Honestly, no clue.

Lynn, I really hope you're joking. Otherwise you're obviously in the wrong forum. Try ADT.com?
By the by, the AFs in N.Y. are done since days, payment is being processed, and I hope to hear from them later today and that they ship you the printouts tomorrow.

[Rubyretro]

[

Not sure what you mean, but Queen Victoria allegedly had a lover after Albert's death. I thought it was a known fact.

It was a joke -you know Maria -given those 'I am not amused' photos.

I've always imagined that the gossip surrounding the friendship with John Brown was just that -gossip.

[lynn cates]

warehouse

Hello Maria, Tom. Why not email me with some suggestions concerning Liz and her position?

I have a student who thinks he may obtain access to a company warehouse where I could reproduce some of the forensic considerations and film them.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Based on the position of the body as found by Diemshitz and co. (pre-Johnston), Stride had to have been standing face against the wall of the club when she was laid to the ground, as her bent knees were closer to the wall than her head.

Makes sense. Standing face against the wall could indicate that they were supposedly preparing for intercourse, but since she held her cachous in her hand, the most plausible possibility is that they were still talking and that he simply turned her around and simultaneously attacked her. With her bad leg, it would have been super easy to control her physically.
I'm always saying, the fact that Stride was an interrupted crime offers important evidence into the Ripper's MO, evidence NOT available in the other C5 (such as the cachous and the position in which Stride was found), but then again, there are the folks who, against all evidence, still insist in considering Stride a domestic, getting not a little bit aggressive and nasty while at that. At least Robert Linford stays cool. ;-)

Cachous were typically purchased by men who smoked harsher tobaccos.

The most plausible possibility (since we have witnesses claiming that kissing took place) is that Stride bought the cachous wishing to remedy her bad breath due to her rotting teeth.


To Kensei:
Is Alan Moore's graphic novel From Hell worth looking at? Is it done by a good penciller /inker/collorist? Does it insist a lot on Abberline “chasing the dragon“ and stuff? (Ugh.)

I've also been looking for the old Victorian birth control pamphlets for ages and can't find them.

I'm under the impression that poster Archaic has stuff like that.

Infact, you have only to look at photos of Queen Victoria to see that she must have been a 'right little go-er'...!

Not sure what you mean, but Queen Victoria allegedly had a lover after Albert's death. I thought it was a known fact.

[lynn cates]

position

Hello Tom. In the position you describe, I take it Liz was NOT behind the northern segment of gate?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

others

Hello Errata.

"All I'm saying is, it is possible for Jack to have satisfied himself sexually without availing himself of the usual orifice. Or even the unusual ones."

Indeed. But is it not generally supposed that the latter 3 ladies had other clients? What of them?

Cheers.
LC

[kensei]

As I was perusing this whole lively discussion it brought to mind some very dark humor from Alan Moore's graphic novel (not the movie) "From Hell," which is loaded with graphic sex scenes. A client of Mary Kelly's demands his full money's worth and makes her "go all the way," after which she muses to her friends (the rest of the C5) that it is time for her "to pray for blood." Double meaning there, of course. Yikes.

[Rubyretro]

The whole "Lie back and think of England" mentality.

I know what you're saying Errata but still........if you think of the age of the planet, and the tiny length of time that the human race has existed, the Victorian era is just a few minutes back. My own grand-parents were born in the 19th century. These people were just like us.

Society might have dictated a hypocritical stance on sex education, and what women were supposed to do and not do, but I bet you anything you like
that your average housewife would have soon got some tips from a garrulous
knowing neighbour...given the high rate of mortality in childbirth, there were
some strong motivation not to fall pregnant, and given the fact that women couldn't easily work to support themselves, I can't believe that they wouldn't also have been highly motivated to keep their husbands happy.

Nor do I believe that they were all 'Laying back and thinking of England'.
Given the many years that Queen Victoria wore black after the death of Prince Albert, and had the Albert Hall built to his memory, and all those children popping out long after duty was done although she outranked him and could easily refuse to sleep with him....why my logic tells me that
'England' was probably the last thing Victoria had on her mind when laying back. And if it was good enough for the Queen..

Infact, you have only to look at photos of Queen Victoria to see that she must have been a 'right little go-er'...!

[Tom_Wescott]

For whatever it's worth

Hi all,

Based on the position of the body as found by Diemshitz and co. (pre-Johnston), Stride had to have been standing face against the wall of the club when she was laid to the ground, as her bent knees were closer to the wall than her head.

As for the cachous, if these were not purchased by her, I feel they were likely given to her by the man seen with her by Best & Gardner, who was kissing her. Marshall's man's a possibility, but he states the man was kissing on Liz, not that they were kissing each other on the mouth. Cachous were typically purchased by men who smoked harsher tobaccos.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott