Where did the Ripper likely live?

[Adam Went]

Phil H:

I know it’s an old one about Druitt and I’ve made it clear elsewhere exactly what I think of Druitt’s candidacy as the Ripper, but given that he played a game of cricket on the same day as Annie Chapman’s murder, though it is possible that he could have got from Spitalfields back to the cricket ground in time for the game, I think it’s highly unlikely that he would have attempted to do so. Why wait until 5.30 am to murder the victim when he could have done it 3, 4, 5 hours earlier as with his other victims, and still have time to get home and rest up and get ready for the game? As it is we must presume he’d been up all night on the hunt and then raced back to Blackheath and gone straight to his game.

Really? Having played the game I can assure everybody that pulling an all nighter before a game is not a wise idea. His fellow players would have noticed and the first time he dropped an absolute pudding of a catch because he was dozing at mid-off, his team mates would have been right onto him. They would have noticed and if they had any suspicion at all about his nocturnal activities, they surely would have raised them then.

I believe the scorecard from the August 8 match has actually been discovered previously and Druitt had a decent match….. so it’s hard to reconcile all of that with his being in Spitalfields at daybreak on the same day, wandering around with all sorts of gruel on him.

Fleetwood:

Yep, it’s the old question, what would you do? Of course it was the job of the police to investigate suspicious characters but as you say, in that area, there would have been many, the attitude towards the police was already an unfriendly one at best and they were often on solo patrols at the time….putting yourself in their shoes, one would be wary to approach a suspicious character. Especially if he made his getaway through the thoroughfares as we’ve discussed.

But more importantly, as you alluded to as well, by the time the search was begun in full, the killer had already had enough time to make his escape.
I think the main point is that there was just always a major element of risk involved and he was always taking a chance, and it’s hard to believe that he got lucky on so many occasions, so many instances of “missed him by THAT much!”.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Lechmere]

Rubyretro
I don’t think the A-man description necessarily equates to a toff.
Also I am also not at all sure that Hutchinson saw Kelly with anyone. My general view is that Hutchinson was a false witness who did it for the money.

[Edward]

Semantics and other thoughts ...

Hello All –

The streets of London’s East End seem to have been fairly busy during the LVP, even between the hours of midnight and 5:00 am. Those streets were definitely not deserted. To me, the question of whether Jack was ‘seen’ or not seen is moot. In my mind, the question is this: Was Jack recognized as a possible suspect? (apparently, he was not) The killer obviously had the ability to blend in with the locals milling around the dimly lit streets in the middle of the night.

Blood on Jack’s clothes? Given the street lighting of that era, Jack would probably have to be soaked with blood in order to be discovered. There was some medical opinion at the time that the killer was not necessarily covered with blood. His appearance and demeanor did not draw attention to himself while leaving the scene of the crime.

As for the police searches, when an alarm sounds, the officers rush to the scene of the crime, get organized, then begin moving outwards looking for the killer. Walking, even a 2 or 3-minute head start on the police would be huge. (especially in the jumble of narrow streets and alleys of the East End). Running in the vicinity of a murder would tend to draw attention to one’s self, so I assume that Jack walked away. Once Jack made it out of the immediate area of the murder, there was no reason to suspect him as the killer more than any other person on the street.

Local or not? I don’t think that Jack necessarily had to be a local. His movement after the Eddowes murder between Mitre Square and Ghoulston Street has me leaning toward him being local. (He did not move to a major thoroughfare and immediately exit the area.)

Jack did not necessarily have to be cunning. Did he take chances? Yes. Was he lucky? Yes. The murders took place in dark secluded (or semi-secluded) places. (probably picked out by his victims) The odds of him being caught red-handed were there, but they were not overwhelming. Once the killer walked away and turned a corner, he was for the most part, home free.

Best regards,
Edward

[Fleetwood Mac]

Well, my personal opinion, Adam, is that the major obstacle was not being caught red handed. And, I've mentioned the subsequent search so not much use in going through that again.

Again, my own personal view is that MJK murder was a relatively safe location; in his mind he may have felt the Eddowes location was relatively safe assuming he wasn't aware of police beats; Chapman relatively safe.

The Stride murder stands out as the one where he must have known he took a huge risk, which again could point away from her being JTR's handywork.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I was just joking, no offense meant!

None taken, Bolo. I appreciate you were posting 'just for jollies'!

[Phil H]

Adam

What if Chapman WAS killed earlier - around the time of the murder of Nichols (i.e. before 4a.m)?

The backyard of No 29 would have been MUCH safer and less risky for the killer when it was still dark, and Mrs Long's sighting and what Cadoche heard do not necessarily insist that they saw/heard "Jack".

Phil

[GregBaron]

All risky...

Again, my own personal view is that MJK murder was a relatively safe location; in his mind he may have felt the Eddowes location was relatively safe assuming he wasn't aware of police beats; Chapman relatively safe.

The Stride murder stands out as the one where he must have known he took a huge risk, which again could point away from her being JTR's handywork.

I'm not sure we can judge risk assessment of the various sites Fleetwood. They were all incredibly risky. Someone could have stumbled upon them or looked out the window or through the window etc. in all cases. The boldness is a major hallmark of these crimes...

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not sure we can judge risk assessment of the various sites Fleetwood. They were all incredibly risky. Someone could have stumbled upon them or looked out the window or through the window etc. in all cases. The boldness is a major hallmark of these crimes...

Greg

In the same way that anyone makes a judgement call, and of course the risk assessment is my own assessment in accordance with what I feel constitutes high risk or otherwise, just as yours is yours.

I feel the chance of someone knocking on Kelly's door between 2 and 5 in the morning was slim. I mean, Cox wasn't too disturbed by the 'noiseless shabby' looking man entering her room with her at midnight - she didn't go back to knock on her door.

According to Morris, Mitre Square was a 'respectable and quiet area'. It would have seemed relatively risk free - unless of course he was aware of police beats and Morris's habits.

Chapman? Behind a house at night? Possibly more risky as he should have known that people would have been getting up to go to work - such was the nature of the East End.

Stride? no ifs and buts, what did he know, what didn't he know etc. He certainly must have known he was about to kill someone in a busy area with people returning from pubs, getting their supper at that time. It wasn't as late as the others. And with a club on the go next door.

In sum: Stride must have been very risky to any man; whereas the others are open to debate and personal projection.

And, consequently, to me it doesn't fit with the murders in terms of risk, unless of course he lost control and just had to do it at that point in time - which certainly would make it the odd one out in terms of risk taken.

[GregBaron]

All that different?

Well, you’re probably right Fleetwood that Stride’s was the most bustling of the areas. But I could see him doing his work in the incredibly dark entrance to Dutfield’s yard while the Jews sang nearby and a few stragglers walked about Berner Street. I believe part of the thrill was the danger.

And you’re right it was earlier than the others but so was Eddowes. She was probably off’d about 1:37 a.m. roughly about 40 minutes after Stride….

I’m just not sure we can eliminate Stride based on risk and timeframe…

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Well, you’re probably right Fleetwood that Stride’s was the most bustling of the areas. But I could see him doing his work in the incredibly dark entrance to Dutfield’s yard while the Jews sang nearby and a few stragglers walked about Berner Street. I believe part of the thrill was the danger.

And you’re right it was earlier than the others but so was Eddowes. She was probably off’d about 1:37 a.m. roughly about 40 minutes after Stride….

I’m just not sure we can eliminate Stride based on risk and timeframe…

Greg

Pretty much share your sentiments, Greg.

I'm not eliminating Stride. Simply suggesting that in terms of risk it was the odd one out.

Looking at police procedure, unless caught red handed he had a decent chance of getting away with it. So the key risk was someone stumbling upon him, and there was more chance of this happening with Stride than the others.

[caz]

Don't forget, Stride could have made herself the odd one out if she was the only victim not prepared to go with her killer to a more private location. He apparently struck where he encountered her, for reasons unknown.

Her instincts, relative sobriety and general health at the time would have made her more wary than Martha, Polly or Annie before her, and less willing to go anywhere with just anyone, considering there was at least one murdering fiend at large in the area. She may have felt safer staying put by the busy club, but all that did was to spare her dead body being mutilated.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

Don't forget, Stride could have made herself the odd one out if she was the only victim not prepared to go with her killer to a more private location. He apparently struck where he encountered her, for reasons unknown.

She was found in the darkest corner of the yard - seems to be by design to me - I'd estimate she wasn't standing around in that corner so must have gone there/been dragged there, as opposed to 'striking where he encountered her'.

No signs of a struggle, so again it suggests she went there willingly.

And, we do know prostitutes used that yard, so it was as private as Liz needed, although not as private as Jack needed to enjoy himself.

[Sarah]

Hi All

I haven't been on these boards for a while so I apologise if anything I say if a little "beginner-ish".

Stride does seem to have been killed in quite a public area perhaps but was it really any more public than Nichols? To be honest I agree Greg in that all of the murder sites were fairly risky. Kelly's murder site may have been the least risky but he may have just a lucky break there. At least that's how I think about it.

Sarah

[Adam Went]

Fleetwood:

I agree with you that the scene of MJK's murder was relatively safe for Jack, in comparison to the other sites especially, and it's been said countless times before that this is partially why he really went to town on poor Mary....but i'm not convinced that Hanbury Street was a particularly safe location, given the impending daylight and the fact that the yard was closed in - at least he had more escape options at most of the other murder sites.

It is difficult to do risk assessments, as has already been said, because it allows for the introduction of "what if?" scenarios.

Phil H:

It's a worthwhile suggestion and has certainly been mooted before but I think the combined testimony of Long, Cadosch and Richardson tell the story that it was after 5 AM when Annie was murdered....Dr. Phillips is the thorn in the side of that but then it's my opinion that some of Dr. Phillips' views are....questionable, to say the least. In any case the technology didn't exist then to be able to determine an accurate time of death, it was all down to body temperatures, clotting of blood, rigor mortis, etc - in a nutshell it was guesswork. And even at the most extreme hour of Dr. Phillips' estimation, it was still past mid-morning and, I think, cutting it fine for Druitt and his cricket match. Why not the night before, or the night after?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil H]

...i'm not convinced that Hanbury Street was a particularly safe location, given the impending daylight and the fact that the yard was closed in - at least he had more escape options at most of the other murder sites.

I agree - Hanbury St had NO real alternative escape routes bar the passage and doors, other than jumping over a comparatively high fence - into what?

BUt to my mind the REAL danger to JtR was that (unless he had been there before) he could have no idea while standing in the street what lay behind the front door. Even if he pushed that open, all he would see was a passage and another door. OK, if he did not like what he saw when he reached the yard he could have made his apologies and left, I suppose, but it is still a different position from the other murder sites.

In Buck's Row he could see both ways and would have had time to react to anyone he heard approaching.

In Mitre Square there were three exits.

Even Dutfield's Yard (assuming he killed Stride) left him opportunities - either a quick dash into the street or through the Club at a push and he could SEE them.

MJK's room (again assuming the same hand, which I don't usually) JtR could have "cased the joint" beforehand either on a visit (as a client?) or through the window. Once inside the killer might have regarded themselves as comparatively safe, but there remained only one door - so there was a risk. (These are among the reasons why I believe that MJK's killer was known to her.)

It's a worthwhile suggestion and has certainly been mooted before but I think the combined testimony of Long, Cadosch and Richardson tell the story that it was after 5 AM when Annie was murdered....

I do not question a word of what Mrs Long and Cadoche said - only whether they saw/heard "Jack" and Annie. Mrs L might have seen a couple and put two and two together and made sixteen. Cadoche could have heard THAT couple discovering the body, then scarpering, not wishing to be identified for obvious reasons.

On Druitt, I don't believe he did it (I might have once but that was in my salad days when I was green in judgement).

Phil