Where did the Ripper likely live?

[Monty]

You've never heard of Morris's comment before Adam?

And you are writing an article on Mitre Square?

Morris states he had duties to perform during that period of Saturday night/Sunday morning. He would have been expected to have kept the premises in reasonable condition and there seems to have been a routine with Morris. Something, I suspect, Eddowes knew.

One thing every one is missing with regards the risk of capture at Mitre Square is the reversal of beats which, initially, would have thrown a killer if he had been studying them previously.

After all, that's why beats were reversed without warning, just in case they had been studied.

Monty

[Adam Went]

Fleetwood:

Interesting, don't think i'd heard of that comment from Morris before. Is it possible that, being a weekend night shortly after most pubs and ale houses had closed, he prefered to stay indoors whilst all the drunks, some of them violent and spoiling for a fight (again, human nature in 1888 has not changed with time) made their way homewards?

Or, alternatively, maybe he just wanted to distance himself from being anywhere near the scene of the crime, like Harris and Levy....the difference is that Morris was of course an ex-policeman.

There's no doubt that each crime scene had their own individual risks but IMO Mitre Square was actually a slightly safer option for the killer, given the multiple exits, the quietness and the darkness.....the only risk he had was two or three policemen coming in at the same time via different exits and spotting him, which ALMOST could have happened.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is another possible reason : it was killing in that particular spot (next to the club) that mattered the most to him, and therefore he was willing to take the risks and do without the mutilation (to be had later).

Why would the club be the thing that mattered most to him, Ruby?

[Rubyretro]

He could quite easily have moved onto someone else, somewhere else, so either Stride wasn't JTR; or he simply felt the risks weren't as great as we assume with a modern eye, or he was consumded with killing and mutilating and risks were not really uppermost within his mind (outside of killing in a dark spot).

There is another possible reason : it was killing in that particular spot (next to the club) that mattered the most to him, and therefore he was willing to take the risks and do without the mutilation (to be had later).

[Fleetwood Mac]

Phil H:

Everybody talks about Mitre Square being one of the most dangerous locations, but I don't necessarily agree with that given that, as you said, it had 3 different exits.

It appears dangerous to us because we know of the police beats and Morris etc.

Did Jack know of these?

According to Morris it was a 'quiet and respectable area'.

So, Jack may have thought he'd struck gold. A dark square in a quiet area while being completely oblivious to police beats.

One thing that intrigued me about Morris is that he states something like: "I never go outside between 1-2 on a Saturday night because I have work to do". Well, he has work to do the other nights! I'm curious as to what is different about Saturday.

[Adam Went]

Phil H:

You make some valid points.
Everybody talks about Mitre Square being one of the most dangerous locations, but I don't necessarily agree with that given that, as you said, it had 3 different exits. Likewise in Berner Street he could have disappeared in a hurry in any direction. Hanbury Street, on the other hand, was a closed in yard with just the passageway from whence he came with his victim. The fence was not overly high and if he was athletic enough he could have jumped it with no difficulty if somebody appeared, but exactly - into what? What if he jumped into Cadosch's yard while he was standing there, for instance?

It was risky. MJK's was risky too from an escaping point of view but only if she had somebody checking on her in the wee hours of the morning, which would have been unlikely if the lights were out and they believed her to be asleep.

It's possible that Long and Cadosch heard something different and were wrong, but that still doesn't explain how Richardson could have missed the body if it was there at around 4.45 AM? Unless he was one of the least observant people ever, considering he was there in the first place to check on the security of the yard.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Phil H]

Well, I suppose the proof's in the pudding and the fact he wasn't caught tells us he was careful enough.

Or lucky. If Lechmere/Cross wasn't "Jack" (maybe even if he was) he had a close shave in Buck's Row,

Perhaps he had his own reasons for thinking he'd get away with it, e.g. he had a knife and could fend someone off

That probably would have been his fall-back option, IMHO. It makes one wonder whether he covered his face - say with a scarf - once the deed was done, so no one would recognise him. But that's idle speculation.

He could quite easily have moved onto someone else, somewhere else, so either Stride wasn't JTR; or he simply felt the risks weren't as great as we assume with a modern eye,

One of my reasons for believing that Stride was a "domestic" is that the location was too busy, with too many people about.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Caz,

Well, I suppose the proof's in the pudding and the fact he wasn't caught tells us he was careful enough.

Perhaps he had his own reasons for thinking he'd get away with it, e.g. he had a knife and could fend someone off or something entirely different, e.g. for someone reason he felt he an advantage on some passer by, i.e. he'd see and hear them before they did him.

He could quite easily have moved onto someone else, somewhere else, so either Stride wasn't JTR; or he simply felt the risks weren't as great as we assume with a modern eye, or he was consumded with killing and mutilating and risks were not really uppermost within his mind (outside of killing in a dark spot).

Difficult really to say. The one thing I would confidentally contend based on police accounts of how and when the search was undertaken after one of the murders, is that he had a good chance of getting away with it providing he wasn't caught red handed.

[caz]

She was found in the darkest corner of the yard - seems to be by design to me - I'd estimate she wasn't standing around in that corner so must have gone there/been dragged there, as opposed to 'striking where he encountered her'.

No signs of a struggle, so again it suggests she went there willingly.

And, we do know prostitutes used that yard, so it was as private as Liz needed, although not as private as Jack needed to enjoy himself.

Sorry, FM, I didn't express myself very well there. What I meant by 'striking where he encountered her' was that he presumably encountered her in or near Dutfield's Yard, where she was found dead. It's likely that the others encountered their killer on a main road and took him or went with him to different locations, where he found he could carry out the various mutilations.

I agree with you that whether or not Stride was willing to service her killer in the yard, it clearly wasn't the ideal time or place for the serial mutilator who was active that night.

And that makes me think it may have been Stride's idea to stay put and not go off with anyone elsewhere.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil H]

...i'm not convinced that Hanbury Street was a particularly safe location, given the impending daylight and the fact that the yard was closed in - at least he had more escape options at most of the other murder sites.

I agree - Hanbury St had NO real alternative escape routes bar the passage and doors, other than jumping over a comparatively high fence - into what?

BUt to my mind the REAL danger to JtR was that (unless he had been there before) he could have no idea while standing in the street what lay behind the front door. Even if he pushed that open, all he would see was a passage and another door. OK, if he did not like what he saw when he reached the yard he could have made his apologies and left, I suppose, but it is still a different position from the other murder sites.

In Buck's Row he could see both ways and would have had time to react to anyone he heard approaching.

In Mitre Square there were three exits.

Even Dutfield's Yard (assuming he killed Stride) left him opportunities - either a quick dash into the street or through the Club at a push and he could SEE them.

MJK's room (again assuming the same hand, which I don't usually) JtR could have "cased the joint" beforehand either on a visit (as a client?) or through the window. Once inside the killer might have regarded themselves as comparatively safe, but there remained only one door - so there was a risk. (These are among the reasons why I believe that MJK's killer was known to her.)

It's a worthwhile suggestion and has certainly been mooted before but I think the combined testimony of Long, Cadosch and Richardson tell the story that it was after 5 AM when Annie was murdered....

I do not question a word of what Mrs Long and Cadoche said - only whether they saw/heard "Jack" and Annie. Mrs L might have seen a couple and put two and two together and made sixteen. Cadoche could have heard THAT couple discovering the body, then scarpering, not wishing to be identified for obvious reasons.

On Druitt, I don't believe he did it (I might have once but that was in my salad days when I was green in judgement).

Phil

[Adam Went]

Fleetwood:

I agree with you that the scene of MJK's murder was relatively safe for Jack, in comparison to the other sites especially, and it's been said countless times before that this is partially why he really went to town on poor Mary....but i'm not convinced that Hanbury Street was a particularly safe location, given the impending daylight and the fact that the yard was closed in - at least he had more escape options at most of the other murder sites.

It is difficult to do risk assessments, as has already been said, because it allows for the introduction of "what if?" scenarios.

Phil H:

It's a worthwhile suggestion and has certainly been mooted before but I think the combined testimony of Long, Cadosch and Richardson tell the story that it was after 5 AM when Annie was murdered....Dr. Phillips is the thorn in the side of that but then it's my opinion that some of Dr. Phillips' views are....questionable, to say the least. In any case the technology didn't exist then to be able to determine an accurate time of death, it was all down to body temperatures, clotting of blood, rigor mortis, etc - in a nutshell it was guesswork. And even at the most extreme hour of Dr. Phillips' estimation, it was still past mid-morning and, I think, cutting it fine for Druitt and his cricket match. Why not the night before, or the night after?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Sarah]

Hi All

I haven't been on these boards for a while so I apologise if anything I say if a little "beginner-ish".

Stride does seem to have been killed in quite a public area perhaps but was it really any more public than Nichols? To be honest I agree Greg in that all of the murder sites were fairly risky. Kelly's murder site may have been the least risky but he may have just a lucky break there. At least that's how I think about it.

Sarah

[Fleetwood Mac]

Don't forget, Stride could have made herself the odd one out if she was the only victim not prepared to go with her killer to a more private location. He apparently struck where he encountered her, for reasons unknown.

She was found in the darkest corner of the yard - seems to be by design to me - I'd estimate she wasn't standing around in that corner so must have gone there/been dragged there, as opposed to 'striking where he encountered her'.

No signs of a struggle, so again it suggests she went there willingly.

And, we do know prostitutes used that yard, so it was as private as Liz needed, although not as private as Jack needed to enjoy himself.

[caz]

Don't forget, Stride could have made herself the odd one out if she was the only victim not prepared to go with her killer to a more private location. He apparently struck where he encountered her, for reasons unknown.

Her instincts, relative sobriety and general health at the time would have made her more wary than Martha, Polly or Annie before her, and less willing to go anywhere with just anyone, considering there was at least one murdering fiend at large in the area. She may have felt safer staying put by the busy club, but all that did was to spare her dead body being mutilated.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

Well, you’re probably right Fleetwood that Stride’s was the most bustling of the areas. But I could see him doing his work in the incredibly dark entrance to Dutfield’s yard while the Jews sang nearby and a few stragglers walked about Berner Street. I believe part of the thrill was the danger.

And you’re right it was earlier than the others but so was Eddowes. She was probably off’d about 1:37 a.m. roughly about 40 minutes after Stride….

I’m just not sure we can eliminate Stride based on risk and timeframe…

Greg

Pretty much share your sentiments, Greg.

I'm not eliminating Stride. Simply suggesting that in terms of risk it was the odd one out.

Looking at police procedure, unless caught red handed he had a decent chance of getting away with it. So the key risk was someone stumbling upon him, and there was more chance of this happening with Stride than the others.