Is the Royal Conspiracy theory back on?

[niko]

" Win your spurs"

Hi to everyone,I have always had a great belief that the Royal family, the British goverment, the police and the Freemason's had somthing to do with the Whitechapel murder's, " how " I do'nt know.
This is an artcle I found interesting which I googled on " Freemason's, cook's ceremony with knife " on connection with the knife I poses.

In the order of Chivalry, the spurs had a symbolic meaning as important as their practical use was necesarry. " To win's one's spurs " was a phrase that meant " to the dignity of knighthood ". Hence, in the investiture of a knight, he was told that the spurs were a symbol of promptitude in military service, and in the degradation of an unfaithful knight his spurs were hacked off by the cook.

To show his utter unworthiness to wear them. Stowe say's ( ANNOLA 902 ) in discribing the ceremony of investing knight's - " evening prayer being ended, there stood at the chapel-door the king's master cook, with his white apron and sleeves, and chopping KNIFE in his hand, gilded about the edge, and challenged their spurs, which they redeemed with a noble piece, and he said to every knight as they passed by him - " Sir knight, look that you be true and loyal to the king, my master, or else I must hew these spurs from your heel's ".

In the Masonic orders of Chivalry, the symbolism of the spurs has unfortunatly been omitted.

All the best, Agur.

niko.

[Phil H]

Spurs have not played a part in any of the chivalric orders in modern times. the regalia of the Garter (and most of the other British orders - Thistle, Bath, etc) consists of mantle and hat, but in terms of "jewellery" - a collar and star, with a smaller ornament on the bow of a ribbon or sash. No spurs.

There are spurs among the royal regalia but the play a minor role in the coronation ceremony only.

So far as spurs and knighthood are concerned, they are a medieval concept, largely forgotten by all except academics. true, writers like GA Henty titled books "Let the Boy win his spurs" (or some such - not sure if that actually WAS a Henty title) but the connections seem very slim.

You wrote: I have always had a great belief that the Royal family, the British goverment, the police and the Freemason's had somthing to do with the Whitechapel murder's, " how " I do'nt know.

That's the problem with the "royal conspiracy" THERE IS NO REASON/MOTIVE/PURPOSE to it.

It was (largely) a post-Watergate construct, developed at a time when the public saw conspiracies as possible and believeable. But show me one Victorian example of something similar?

Most of the supposed players have been shown to have alibis - Eddy was with the Queen; Gull was elderly and frail; Sickert and faiclough's evidence - the so-called Abberline diaries - are a fraud (and a bad one as Abberline's initials are transposed).

If there were Government and police involvement around the Whitechapel murders it is MUCH more likely that it related to Fenian links/connections or cross-overs.

What you believe is, of course, up to you, but I think a few hard questions of the rationale behind a conspiracy will show how flimsy (even non-existent) both the evidence or logic is. Study of the late Victorian period, especially the politics, also tends, I find, to dissuade one from such (IMHO) pointless speculation.

Phil

[niko]

Hi Phil, thankyou for your correction on the spurs and knight's, " so they only excisted in medieval time's ". I came across this article whilst searching for masonic ritual's which where a knife was used, and this is the only thing I found. I now belief mason's do not use knifes in their ritual's.

I supose there is no truth in what is written about Prince Eddy and the tabbaconist girl in Cleveland Street theory ( I think it was Cleveland Street ). I know there is rock solid alibi's for Prince Eddy. BUT I imagine a lot of people who have gotten away with crime's on stateing false alibi's.

I have thought many times if the tabbaconist girl theory was true, would the Royal's have the power and influence to fraud the alibi's ?. Just a thought..... all the best, Agur.

[lynn cates]

Victorians who conspired

Hello Phil.

"But show me one Victorian example of something similar?"

Are you referring to things conspiratorial and which had government/police involvement? Then one might try:

1. The Duleep Singh affair.

2. The Jubilee dynamite plot.

3. The Walsall conspiracy.

If this is NOT your meaning, I apologise.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

elsewhere

Hello Niko. It does not seem to be the case that PAV gave any alibi--false or otherwise. His alibi was established in the last few years by a researcher who traced his movements during the time of the WCM.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Eddy's "witness" to his alibi was also exceptional - no less than HM The Queen. I think his appointments are recorded in the Court Circular of the day, so there would have been many Court officials, servants etc who would have known had anyone sought to mislead.

Lynn - not the sort of thing had in mind, I would include Cleveland St and perhaps even the Wilde affair to your list - where there was collusion (to allow Lord Euston to leave the country and allow the same opportunity to Oscar, though it was not taken in the latter case).

I was thinking of a case (similar to Watergate, I suppose, but as composed by Stephen Knight) where a crime by the agents of the Government was not only a conspiracy in itself, but was (as alleged in the Jtr case) covered up by the police and the trail falsified on the files.

In the case of the Royal Family, for instance, it is clear that however inconvenient and embarrassing, the activities and scandals of Edward, Prince of Wales were not covered up - he appeared in court twice - once in connection with the Mordaunt case and once in connection with gambling. His affairs were so well known there were cartoons in foreign newspapers. Yet the other people involved in the Tranby Croft (gambling) case were not murdered by royal henchmen; Lillie langtrey and Daisy, Countess of Warwick, were not pursued by vengeful freemasons.

The whole basis of the "Prince Eddy married a catholic (what Niko refers to as "the tabbaconist girl in Cleveland Street theory" has been exploded. Indeed, I believe that Knight had been informed of the true facts when he wrote his book.

Deeper than that, because of Eddy's age, any marriage without specific approval by the Queen and Government was not valid in law (George III Royal Marriages Act). The idea, again promoted by Knight) that the monarchy was in danger from rampant republicanism, is not right for 1888. It was for the late 1860s, but following Bertie's (Eddy's father) recovery from typhoid in 1871/72 that threat was effectively over.

So what were the mason's in the conspiracy seeking to do - there was no basis for blackmail - in murdering woman?

One point Niko - I don't know about freemasons and knives, but they do use SWORDS in their rituals I believe.

Phil

[spyglass]

Hi all,
Let us not forget the cover up of the death of Princess Dianna.....only joking!!.....OR AM I ?

[mklhawley]

Hello Phil and Phil. I am afraid that I must, as so often happens, agree with you both--Lord Randolph as a killer of prostitutes (real or purported) makes no sense to me.

If, indeed, his name (not another Churchill) is in the SB ledgers, it is likely the end result of rumour, etc.

It has been established that Lord Salisbury, definitely, (and Lord Randolph, possibly) were deeply involved in the 1887 "Jubilee Bomb Plot," albeit NOT as active bombers.

It has also been established that "Red Jim" McDermott was blackmailing Sir Edward Jenkinson, based on the information contained in 2 letters held by Matthew O'Brien. (O'Brien had served as intermediary in some of the entrapment plots with "Red Jim.")

(I presume everyone is aware of the points of similarity between "Red Jim's" physical description and that of "Blotchy Man"?)

At any rate, I would suggest that a mention of Lord Randolph's name was possibly linked to a botched blackmail attempt on the part of "Red Jim" McDermott.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Did you see this thread on Red Jim?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=142441

Mike

[lynn cates]

BM

Hello Mike. Yes, thanks. His physical description sounds much like Blotchy Man.

Cheers.
LC

[Krinoid]

Where did the info come from of the below snippets and where can they be found?

Hi all,
Having just caught up with the dissapointing news concerning the SB Ledgers, it was intresting to see that Mr Marriott has given us some little teasers.
Two of the snippets are intresting, they being the names R.Churchill and O'Brien.
Correct me if I am wrong but if my memory serves me right, did'nt these two names figure in one of the Royal Conspiracy theory's, ie. Randolph Churchill and O'Brien being the real name or alias for Mary Kelly.
I admit that I have'nt read any Royal Conspiracy books for a few years now, so cant quite remember which one it was.

Any Thoughts ??

[spyglass]

Hi Krinoid,
If you mean the snippets from Trevor Marriott, I suggest going to the forum page relating to The SB Ledgers posted some weeks back.
If you mean the snippets I put forward, they are to be found in most books concerning the royal conspiracy angle of JTR, the main one being THE RIPPER AND THE ROYALS.

Best Wishes.

[niko]

Stephen Knight

Hi everyone, a few month's ago I viewed the Stephen Knight interview on his theory in the 70's. It has been impossible for me to review it, can someone advice me what to "google" to see the documentry. I have googled so many way's and many time's with no luck, that I am starting to think it has been errased "but that's impossible", thank's for your help, all the best, Agur.

niko.

[miss marple]

I have the Stephen Knight interview on tape. Would be nice to put it on a DVD.

Miss Marple

[niko]

I have the Stephen Knight interview on tape. Would be nice to put it on a DVD.

Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple, I think it would be wise to put it on DVD. What I do'nt understand is why I ca'nt view the interview anywhere on the Internet, I have never before had difficulties on viewing the BBC Stephen Knight interview, but now it's impossible, all the best, Agur.

niko

[Krinoid]

Anyone ever find out about what was in the Ledgers about Churchill?