Is the Royal Conspiracy theory back on?

[spyglass]

Hi all,
Having just caught up with the dissapointing news concerning the SB Ledgers, it was intresting to see that Mr Marriott has given us some little teasers.
Two of the snippets are intresting, they being the names R.Churchill and O'Brien.
Correct me if I am wrong but if my memory serves me right, did'nt these two names figure in one of the Royal Conspiracy theory's, ie. Randolph Churchill and O'Brien being the real name or alias for Mary Kelly.
I admit that I have'nt read any Royal Conspiracy books for a few years now, so cant quite remember which one it was.

Any Thoughts ??

[The Grave Maurice]

I can't remember about the O'Brien part, but Randolph Churchill featured in Melvyn Fairclough's The Ripper and the Royals (1991).

[spyglass]

Grave Maurice,
I think you are right, I dont have the book near to hand but I am really certain that the O'Brien/Kelly connection was in there but cant remember now how it all plotted together.
I certainly did'nt and dont put any faith in that story, but there is at least some sort of link.

[Chris]

I must say I was surprised there wasn't more reaction to that Mr [not R] Churchill entry in the Special Branch records.

I'd guess it was probably just an accusation in a crank letter, which the British genius for bureaucracy managed to get officially registered and thereby preserved for all time, but even so I'm surprised there wasn't more reaction.

[John Savage]

Hi Maurice,

You are correct that the name of Randolph Churchill was mentioned in Melvyn Fairclough's "The Ripper and the Royals". This is one of the claims made in the so called Abberline Diaries, and it is from that same unreliable source that we get a mention of the name O'Brien.

In case of interest to anyone I will quote the relevant section from the Abberline Diaries, as published in "The Ripper and the Royals"

"Through a letter sent to me in Jan 1889, from Miss Nora O'Brien of Roofer Castle Limerick, Ireland, when she staed that Marie Jeanette Kelly was her niece, daughter of her brother who was in the army. Officer of the Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. Her real name was Mary Jane O'Brien" [page 244]

Jean Overton Fuller in her Book "Sickert and the Ripper Crimes" [1990] looked further into the Roofer Castle angle, but I cannot recall her conclusions and do not have her book to hand.

Whilst I am not trying to support these diaries in any way, I did mention this curious connection over at the forums a few days ago.

Rgds
John

[Phil Carter]

I must say I was surprised there wasn't more reaction to that Mr [not R] Churchill entry in the Special Branch records.

I'd guess it was probably just an accusation in a crank letter, which the British genius for bureaucracy managed to get officially registered and thereby preserved for all time, but even so I'm surprised there wasn't more reaction.

Hello Chris,

I agree. The dark side peeked through the light in my mind at the time, and I actually thought.. "How much influence has the Met Police over what is published in the newspares, I wonder?"

It didn't take much more than a week before the Commissioner and the Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police resigned, all in connection with the hacking scandal in the newspapers, the contacts employed by the Met and by the Press, both ways as former employees of the other, both with strong connections to the Press and the Met, and the amount of alleged influence between both parties with alleged bungs to certain Met Police Officers.

When it comes to the Royal Conspiracy theory. It is possible, in my opinion, that the contact that the BBC had within the Met back in the 1970's may well have given certain names to them and Joseph Gorman (Sickert), from which Joseph "Sickert" manipulated the names and wove them into his incredible story.

Where would the names have come from within the Met? Well, as the ledgers involve the time period 1888-1912, then ANY Special Branch investigation into any event would most likely be registered there. Obviously, if the names of certain Lords are in there, then one could see the investigation into the Cleveland Street Scandal for example, bringing up names of that ilk.

It could even be for example, a mention of a protection job on a Royal, from the Special Branch, mentioning Prince Eddy, provides a reason why HIS name could be there...all quite innocent. It may not be.. it may have a connection to the Cleveland Street Scandal. We do not know.

As I said though, any name in those ledgers refer to work involving Special Branch in a variety of ways. A variety of cases too, I'd wager.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

Lord Randolph should be a very easy "suspect" to research.

Winston Churchill (his son) wrote a voluminous biography, but Lord R himself was a Government Minister, offended edward Prince of wales and spent time "in exile" in Ireland with his lovely wife Jennie.

His whereabouts should, like PAV's be relatively easy to track down for those with time and inclination.

I say without hesitation that I don't think he "dunnit" for a moment.

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil H,

I agree with you.. Lord Randolph is a non runner as a Whitechapel killer.
The story, and that is what it is, is a well made up fairy tale imho.

best wishes

Phil

[Graham]

Roofer Castle

There is no such place as Roofer or Roofer Castle in Ireland or anywhere else. I believe Paul Begg suggested it might have been Ruthin Castle in North Wales. Ruthin is pronounced Rithin not exactly Roofer but maybe capable of being mis-heard.

Ruthin Castle was owned in the 19th century by the Cornwallis-West family. George Cornwallis-West's first marriage was to Jennie, the widow of Lord Randolph Churchill.

From what I recall it was Joseph Gorman Sickert who first introduced the name 'Roofer' into the story, presumably when being interviewed by Stephen Knight.

Interesting, but probably no more than that.

Graham

[Phil H]

As I have said before, somewhere on Casebook, I think the fact that the artists impression of Hutchinson's astrakhan man has a resemblance to Lord Randolph (mainly as a result of the moustache) has fuelled speculation of his involvement.

Lord Randolph also went mad, as a result of syphilis (though this has been denied) and died in 1895. He probably led quite a dissipated lifestyle, but that does not make him JtR.

he was born in 1849 so would have been around 40 in 1888.

He was Secretary of State for India from 1885 and became Chancellor of the Exchequer and Leader of the House of Commons in 1886, positions from which he resigned later that year. His movements - 1887-1888 should be capable of being worked out from Hansard (the Parliamentary verbatim reports); the fashionable magazines and press. I would expect at least reports of him going abroad, being in the House etc to be ascertainable for particular days. Race meetings (which he often attended) might also be an indication of whether he could have been in the East End at appropriate times.

Phil

[lynn cates]

thoughts

Hello Spyglass. I think HM family are a non-starter--and that for 2 reasons.

1. Applying the principle, cui bono, one cannot (so far as I can see) offer any earthly reason for their perpetrating such crimes.

2. As much as I heartily like her Brittanic Majesty and family, it is difficult for me to imagine there was enough collective neuronal synapsing power there to plan out such an intricate plot.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

As I have said before, somewhere on Casebook, I think the fact that the artists impression of Hutchinson's astrakhan man has a resemblance to Lord Randolph (mainly as a result of the moustache) has fuelled speculation of his involvement.

Oh, but we know Astroman wasn't actually Randolph Churchill, don't we? Just somebody like him.

He didn't have a brother, did he?

[lynn cates]

"Red Jim" McDermott

Hello Phil and Phil. I am afraid that I must, as so often happens, agree with you both--Lord Randolph as a killer of prostitutes (real or purported) makes no sense to me.

If, indeed, his name (not another Churchill) is in the SB ledgers, it is likely the end result of rumour, etc.

It has been established that Lord Salisbury, definitely, (and Lord Randolph, possibly) were deeply involved in the 1887 "Jubilee Bomb Plot," albeit NOT as active bombers.

It has also been established that "Red Jim" McDermott was blackmailing Sir Edward Jenkinson, based on the information contained in 2 letters held by Matthew O'Brien. (O'Brien had served as intermediary in some of the entrapment plots with "Red Jim.")

(I presume everyone is aware of the points of similarity between "Red Jim's" physical description and that of "Blotchy Man"?)

At any rate, I would suggest that a mention of Lord Randolph's name was possibly linked to a botched blackmail attempt on the part of "Red Jim" McDermott.

Cheers.
LC

[Graham]

Some Ripper researcher, and I can't remember who, claimed that Randolph Churchill was suspected of being involved in the Whitechapel Murders long before Dr Thomas Stowell first cropped up with his Royal Conspiracy theory.
I think the suggestion was that, as Churchill was purportedly the highest Freemason in Britain, it was he who organised other high-ranking Freemasons to kill the women who had attempted to blackmail the Government....aye, well.

I don't recall seeing any further evidence or debate regarding the claim that Churchill was an old suspect. Does anyone have any further information on this?

Graham

[lynn cates]

A man

Hello Sally. Regarding astrakhan, go here, post #430.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3835&page=43&highlight=astrakhan

Please read the description carefully. Who is that REAL astrakhan man? What is his link to Lords Salisbury and Randolph?

Cheers.
LC