Was Jack or (were Jack’s) schizophrenic?

[Darryl Kenyon]

You speculate that Sutcliffe masturbated, but you know that Kosminski did.

How is that?

The fact that Kosminski made no secret of his habit is not consistent with his having had the organisation or cunning of the Whitechapel Murderer or Yorkshire Ripper.

And he wasn't a butcher or gravedigger, either.

Hold on a minute I never said Kosminski was a gravedigger nor a butcher I just speculated that the killer may have held an occupation were he could indulge in his homicidal fantasies of cutting into bodies when he wasn't killing .
I thought it was well known that Kosminski indulged in solitary vices IE Victorian euphemism for masturbation.
Sutcliffe wore special open crotch pants which he fashioned himself almost certainly to masturbate after he killed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The sailor is a suspect because he was seen with a prostitute, who had her hand on his chest, a few yards from where she was murdered about three minutes later.

The witness saw a man who may or may not have been the killer. The man wore a coat and a peaked cap. This vague description would have matched thousands of men in London. The fact that the witness, who saw the man so briefly that he couldn’t recognise him again even though they were only 10 feet or so apart, said that his appearance reminded him of a sailor. This is hardly evidence of anything. It certainly doesn’t mean that the man was a sailor.

Druitt is a suspect because when he was on a cricketing tour in Dorset, he could have made secret return trips to London to titillate ripperologists more than a century later.

No, Druitt is a suspect because Sir Melville MacNaghten, Chief Constable of the Met,
felt that he was a suspect. And he wasn’t alone in that. The fact that the cricket match isn’t an alibi might annoy you but it doesn’t change the fact.

There isn't any evidence that Druitt was a psychopath or even a schizophrenic.

There is no evidence that he wasn’t. This proves nothing.

The real murderer had fair hair, the appearance of a sailor, was about 5 ft 7 ins tall, couldn't spell the word 'Jews' correctly, and obviously resided locally.

You really do appear to have an issue separating your opinion from fact. None of the above is a fact.

Druitt had dark hair, did not have the appearance of a sailor, was a fast bowler, was a public school teacher and barrister, and lived about eight miles away.

Please take a breath a rethink what you’re saying. We don’t know what the killer looked like, you’re reading far too much into this ‘appearance of a sailor’ business, Druitt’s profession and his sporting interests are irrelevant. Neither is his place of residence. You’re seeking to make things ‘fit’ your own suspect who you haven’t the confidence to name.

And there is nothing to suggest that he was a psychopath.

Why would there be any evidence of the killer being a psychopath if he was never caught? Did those that knew Ted Bundy or Peter Sutcliffe think they were psychopaths before they were caught? How do you know that Druitt didn’t torture animals when he was young for example? Or that he’d wet the bed? I’m not saying that he did, but the information on all named suspects is lacking in this area so the absence of it means nothing. Do you have evidence that your ‘sailor’ was a psychopath? Or do you just assume it?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

How is that relevant when we are endlessly debating the likelihood of various people being a killer and mutilator of women. I’m sure that your ‘sailor’ wouldn’t have liked being accused of a series of murders if he was innocent.

Its a simple statement of fact that we cannot state that Druitt wasn’t a psychopath. Likewise the vast majority of suspects.

The sailor is a suspect because he was seen with a prostitute, who had her hand on his chest, a few yards from where she was murdered about three minutes later.

Druitt is a suspect because when he was on a cricketing tour in Dorset, he could have made secret return trips to London to titillate ripperologists more than a century later.

There isn't any evidence that Druitt was a psychopath or even a schizophrenic.

The real murderer had fair hair, the appearance of a sailor, was about 5 ft 7 ins tall, couldn't spell the word 'Jews' correctly, and obviously resided locally.

Druitt had dark hair, did not have the appearance of a sailor, was a fast bowler, was a public school teacher and barrister, and lived about eight miles away.

And there is nothing to suggest that he was a psychopath.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Peter Sutcliffe likely had some form of Necrophilic deviancy . Its likely that he masturbated over his victims when he could. I can't help but think that when he was a gravedigger he possibly did the same over female graves/corpses [ if given the chance ] before his killing spree .

A couple of points , Excessive masturbation does seem to be a trait shared by serial killers [ I am sure I have read somewhere ] .It would be interesting to know more about Kosminski's vices. Secondly Sutcliffe does seem to have sought out employment which would help him in his homicidal fantasies . As a lorry driver were he could troll the red light districts and possibly as a gravedigger he could have mutilated dead bodies [ again if he had the chance ] . Perhaps Jack sought out occupations in a similar vein. Butcher, gravedigger etc

Regards Darryl

You speculate that Sutcliffe masturbated, but you know that Kosminski did.

How is that?

The fact that Kosminski made no secret of his habit is not consistent with his having had the organisation or cunning of the Whitechapel Murderer or Yorkshire Ripper.

And he wasn't a butcher or gravedigger, either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Since, as Inspector Abberline noted, there was nothing to connect Druitt with the murders, nor any reason to suspect him of having been the kind of person who could have done anything like that, it is a reasonable deduction that he was not a psychopath nor a schizophrenic.

Its not in any way reasonable to base this deduction purely on the opinion of one man. If you think he was correct then shouldn’t you assume that Chapman was the killer? It also has to be remembered that Abberline had been taken off the investigation in 1889 and had retired from the force in 1892. Why should he know anything about Druitt?

I would humbly suggest that you, for example, would not like to have the same said about you as you have just written about Druitt, unless there were some evidence of psychopathy or schizophrenia.

How is that relevant when we are endlessly debating the likelihood of various people being a killer and mutilator of women. I’m sure that your ‘sailor’ wouldn’t have liked being accused of a series of murders if he was innocent?

Its a simple statement of fact that we cannot state that Druitt wasn’t a psychopath. Likewise we can’t state that he was. Likewise the vast majority of suspects.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Disorganised/organised I take some of the points raised about him being organised but Martha was killed on a stairwell were people were sleeping nearby and perhaps fortunate that he wasn't caught in a cul de sac, considering the amount of times Martha was stabbed, its almost as if he didn't care. The one stab to the heart would have sufficed

Polly was killed in, yes a darkened street but a street a policeman patrolled every few minutes. I doubt he staked it out as a possible murder site , more likely Polly led him there only to find the gates locked to the yard but he attacked Polly anyway instead of seeking out another victim in a more secluded spot.

Annie in a certain cul de sac which was overlooked plus it was coming dawn, and he may have even heard Cadoche in the adjoining yard.

We know he was almost caught with Liz but that didn't deter him . Yes he put some distance between him and Kate's murder but again a nightwatchmen was nearby and the yard was patrolled every few minutes. Plus he may have even noticed Lawende and co looking at him . Not only that but he seems to have headed back into the very district were police could nave been on the lookout for him. Especially since he would have known Liz's body would be discovered.

To me it is only with Mary's murder that a degree of safety is established . And even then the court was one way in and out . And if Jack was Blotchy [ I know that is an if ] he would know he had been seen .

Organised ? Maybe in some aspects, his ability to work quickly etc But to me Jack was more lucky than anything . I doubt he was a complete idiot walking round the streets drooling at the mouth etc But I feel more disorganised than organised, possibly someone like Robert Napper with some form of schizophrenia .
Just my two pennies worth

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Peter Sutcliffe likely had some form of Necrophilic deviancy . Its likely that he masturbated over his victims when he could. I can't help but think that when he was a gravedigger he possibly did the same over female graves/corpses [ if given the chance ] before his killing spree .

A couple of points , Excessive masturbation does seem to be a trait shared by serial killers [ I am sure I have read somewhere ] .It would be interesting to know more about Kosminski's vices. Secondly Sutcliffe does seem to have sought out employment which would help him in his homicidal fantasies . As a lorry driver were he could troll the red light districts and possibly as a gravedigger he could have mutilated dead bodies [ again if he had the chance ] . Perhaps Jack sought out occupations in a similar vein. Butcher, gravedigger etc

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

ug

As he was never assessed by a professional I don’t see how you could assume this simply by reading what is available about hm? You might as well say that he didn’t suffer from depression or athlete’s foot. It’s an unknown.

Since, as Inspector Abberline noted, there was nothing to connect Druitt with the murders, nor any reason to suspect him of having been the kind of person who could have done anything like that, it is a reasonable deduction that he was not a psychopath nor a schizophrenic.

I would humbly suggest that you, for example, would not like to have the same said about you as you have just written about Druitt, unless there were some evidence of psychopathy or schizophrenia.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Montague Druitt was a cricket-playing barrister and schoolteacher.

He was neither a schizophrenic nor a psychopath.

As he was never assessed by a professional I don’t see how you could assume this simply by reading what is available about hm? You might as well say that he didn’t suffer from depression or athlete’s foot. It’s an unknown.

[FrankO]

So, the Whitechapel Murderer could have been schizophrenic and even had what was later called Asperger's Syndrome, but wouldn't you say both men were psychopaths, and wouldn't you agree that without some degree of organisation, the Whitechapel Murderer would have been caught?

I’m not suggesting that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic or had Asperger’s Syndrome, what I’m really saying is that we can’t know either way (schizophrenic or psychopath).
Based on the evidence we could say that the Ripper was organised in the sense that:

• He knew what he was doing
• He killed during the nightly hours of lull
• He was able to not give himself away until it was too late for his victims
• He attacked with such force and speed that his victims couldn’t fight back or cry out
• He cut the throats of his victims in such a way that he didn’t get much blood on his person
• He worked very quickly, whilst, quite probably, scanning the area around him as well (listening and glancing)
• He saw to it that he got away without being noticed
• He didn’t attract any attention to himself in-between murders

He doesn’t need to have been a smooth talker (although he could have been). As long as he posed as a punter, showed the women the money and didn’t act too suspiciously, he would be alright.

But he could also have approached his victims as the man in the article below did, which appeared in the Lloyd’s of 30 September:
Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat.

So, in short, I agree with you to a large extent, PI1, in that JtR would likely have possessed some psychopathic traits (like lack of empathy & guilt, selfishness) and that he wasn’t all disorganised.

Cheers,
Frank

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi PI 1,

Although I'm not disputing the Ripper couldn't have been one, but on what evidence do you base your claim that he was well-organised and that he was a psychopath?

Apart from this, perhaps you'd find it interesting to read about Robert Clive Napper, who was diagnozed as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and Asperger's syndrome. He killed 2 women in the early '90s, one outside in a fashion that's reminiscent of Tabram's murder and another indoors very similar to Kelly's case. And he's also believed to have committed a series of rapes as the "Green Chain Rapist".

All the best,
Frank

I'm familiar with the case you cite.

I just had a re-read of his biography and you certainly have a point about there being a similarity between the murders of Bisset and Kelly.

So, the Whitechapel Murderer could have been schizophrenic and even had what was later called Asperger's Syndrome, but wouldn't you say both men were psychopaths, and wouldn't you agree that without some degree of organisation, the Whitechapel Murderer would have been caught?

[FrankO]

The Whitechapel Murderer was a well-organised psychopath.

Hi PI 1,

Although I'm not disputing the Ripper couldn't have been one, but on what evidence do you base your claim that he was well-organised and that he was a psychopath?

Apart from this, perhaps you'd find it interesting to read about Robert Clive Napper, who was diagnozed as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and Asperger's syndrome. He killed 2 women in the early '90s, one outside in a fashion that's reminiscent of Tabram's murder and another indoors very similar to Kelly's case. And he's also believed to have committed a series of rapes as the "Green Chain Rapist".

All the best,
Frank

[Wickerman]

Yorkshire Ripper debunked: New claim Peter Sutcliffe ‘did not have schizophrenia’
THE YORKSHIRE RIPPER's claims that voices from God instructed him to embark on a barbaric killing spree have been debunked by a journalist who claimed in a new documentary, he "did not have schizophrenia".


The killer claimed he was told to kill by “voices from God” from a gravestone in Bingley Cemetery, West Yorkshire.

Sutcliffe, who worked as a gravedigger in his hometown, said his eerie instructions came from a Polish grave.

However, an expert in a new Channel 5 documentary has rubbished Sutcliffe’s claims he had schizophrenia.

That claim was all over the news at the time, no-one with a pulse believed him. He was just trying to get some easy time.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In rereading some dissertations and threads Ive come across Jacob Isenschmid, Hyam Hyams, Aaron Kozminski and others all of whom were most likely paranoid schizophrenics. It made me wonder if some sort of epidemic was underway in East London or there only seems so many because they are Ripper suspects? This could only be answered by a psychologist and super statistician.

Anyway, keeping in mind the FBI fellow Douglass and many of us who say if the Ripper or Rippers wasnt Aaron Kozminski then it was someone like him, schizophrenia is something we should come to terms with. I think many of us want Jack to be a clever psychopath a la Ted Bundy. We want him to be smart and charming and one who outwits and makes fools of the police and authorities. Some of us even want him to be a Toff; handsome, sophisticated, wealthy, well dressed and a vampire phantom beyond normal human constraints. Few will deny the romance involved. The reality is probably much more mundane and seedy as real life tends to be.

Rob Houses book makes an excellent case for the existence of schizophrenic serial killers; even psychopathic schizophrenic serial killers a witches brew indeed. There is a term called lust murderers where vile disemboweling and/or other cannibalistic acts are part of the MO. The idea of multiple schizophrenic disembowel-ers trolling Whitechapel seems hard to fathom but apparently there were lots of them(schizophrenics) around. Discounting copycats and political motives, I find it hard to believe for example that the murderer of MJK wasnt a delusional schizophrenic. The overkill speaks of extremely disordered thinking. Even so, I think we also need to get away from the idea of the drooling, masturbating vagrant eating out of the gutters idea. Schizophrenics have episodes, delusions come and go, behavior is rational within whatever delusion their mind is entertaining. It doesnt mean these people cant dress themselves or take a bath or plan an event or anything of the kind. Their healthy mind is still in there and assumes control at times. I know a few on the boards have a great deal of knowledge on this subject and have given good information on other threads and can probably speak better than I on the illness. What Im wondering from you guys is how many of you believe the murderer or murderers (was/were) schizophrenic and if so - how might this change our thinking on the mystery itself?

Apologize for the long postsorry if it appears muddled..

Greg

Yorkshire Ripper debunked: New claim Peter Sutcliffe ‘did not have schizophrenia’
THE YORKSHIRE RIPPER's claims that voices from God instructed him to embark on a barbaric killing spree have been debunked by a journalist who claimed in a new documentary, he "did not have schizophrenia".


The killer claimed he was told to kill by “voices from God” from a gravestone in Bingley Cemetery, West Yorkshire.

Sutcliffe, who worked as a gravedigger in his hometown, said his eerie instructions came from a Polish grave.

However, an expert in a new Channel 5 documentary has rubbished Sutcliffe’s claims he had schizophrenia.


'The Ripper Speaks: The Lost Tapes’ centres on secret tapes of Sutcliffe made for Mark Williams-Thomas.

The veteran journalist, who presents the programme, got one of the killer’s frequent visitors while he was in prison to record the tapes.

He presented evidence of Sutcliffe’s schizophrenia claims to consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr David Ho.

Dr Ho said: “By the time schizophrenia grips a person, it’s going to be obvious.

“The behaviour often becomes erratic, perpetuated by whatever delusional beliefs.

“So, it’s unlikely a person with severe schizophrenia will be able to work and conduct life as normal.”

Three psychiatrists called in Sutcliffe’s defence at his 1981 trial each found he had “encapsulated paranoid schizophrenia”.


However, the jury in its verdict found him to be sane at the time of his killings.

Sutcliffe’s younger brother Carl also told the Daily Mail in 2015 Peter “never showed signs of schizophrenia as a child”.

Mr Williams-Thomas asked the expert about the differences between psychopathy and schizophrenia.

Dr Ho said: “Psychosis is often thought to be a symptom of schizophrenia.

“Schizophrenia is of course a severe and enduring mental illness.




“It is normally characterised by features of delusions, and also importantly it often involves a breakdown in the person’s functioning.”

The expert claimed that the incredibly violent nature of some of Sutcliffe’s killings did not match arguments that he had schizophrenia.

He said: “I understand some of the victims were injured and stabbed up to 50 times.”

Dr Ho rubbished Sutcliffe’s claims that voices from God had told him to kill, claiming that if that had been the case, the killer would have been expected to stop after one or two fatal wounds.

He added: “Given the nature of some of the wounds, that leans towards psychopathy, not schizophrenia.”




Mr Williams-Thomas claimed: “So, Peter Sutcliffe was not suffering from schizophrenia at all. He was in fact a psychopath.”


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/15...ams-thomas-spt



Aaron Kosminski was a disorganised, eccentric-looking schizophrenic.

The Whitechapel Murderer was a well-organised psychopath.


Montague Druitt was a cricket-playing barrister and schoolteacher.

He was neither a schizophrenic nor a psychopath.



Walter Sickert was an eccentric artist.

There is no evidence of any schizophrenia or psychopathy attaching to him.



Charles Allen Lechmere was a carter who lived with his wife and nine children.

There is no evidence that he ever displayed signs of schizophrenia or psychopathy.

[Errata]

Put simply, if we locate some other patients with similar medical conditions to the records we have of Kosminski (which pertain to about 1892? or thereabouts), would we be able to backtrack in those other patients records for a span of four years and see what their condition was like four years previous.

Then, we could apply the same progression data but applied in reverse for a four year period (from 1892 to 1888).
Would such research help us to determine what Kosminski's condition 'might' have been like in 1888?
Or, is every patient so different that a 'timeline of deterioration' is never the same with every patient?

Did I make that clear?

Thanks, Jon S.

Well, in theory, absolutely we could do that. And we wouldn't really even patient records, since the in recent years the evolution of various mental illnesses is pretty well documented.

In practice, we could absolutely do that with any mental illness except schizophrenia and personality disorders.

Schizophrenia is out because there is no way to predict deterioration rates. There are just far too many variables. If you knew the patients life story, it could be possible, but it this case, we just can't.

Personality disorders are out because some are caused, some are innate, some we don't know (to be fair most if not all we don't know). There are people with personality disorders who never get worse, people who get better (although not cured. Successfully treated), people who slowly get worse, and people who get catastrophically worse seemingly overnight.

Barring those two (yes, the prime two) we could easily make educated guesses about onset of symptoms, period and amplitude of cyclical behaviors, rate of deterioration if any etc.

Bipolar for example, onset would be at about 18 (unless they had the much rarer childhood onset Bipolar, in which case symptoms would begin at about 2 or 3) likely would not be considered problematic until the first major manic episode, usually within six months to a year of being symptomatic. Rapid-cycling people are FAR more noticeable than their slower rate counterparts. People can age out of rapid-cycling, or with age develop longer and longer periods of depression.

So if someone were say, 22 and we knew they were Bipolar, I could say that four years earlier likely no one had noticed any mental illness, just that someone was more moody, and more short tempered. The person affected would not feel anything was particularly wrong, maybe a little more tired, maybe a little more wired. And they would be a lousy neighbor because they would stop sleeping as much during normal sleeping hours.