Was Jack or (were Jack’s) schizophrenic?

[Wickerman]

Hi Greg, Errata.
Seeing as how you both touch on the same thing...

....With that said, Koz, for example, at 22 in 1888 may not have experienced an episode yet so if he committed the crimes his later illness may be a moot point.

... If Kosminski was schizophrenic, he had become symptomatic by 22. However he may not yet have become delusional.

I thought I might ask something which occured to me when reading Rob House' new book on Kosminski.

What I thought was missing in Rob's book was what we might call a means to measure him by. By this I mean, because we have some medical records of Kosminski's condition in later years, was it 1892?
Would it be possible to construct some kind of timeline using other patients records (or are they private?), to help us determine the progression of his mania?

Put simply, if we locate some other patients with similar medical conditions to the records we have of Kosminski (which pertain to about 1892? or thereabouts), would we be able to backtrack in those other patients records for a span of four years and see what their condition was like four years previous.

Then, we could apply the same progression data but applied in reverse for a four year period (from 1892 to 1888).
Would such research help us to determine what Kosminski's condition 'might' have been like in 1888?
Or, is every patient so different that a 'timeline of deterioration' is never the same with every patient?

Did I make that clear?

Thanks, Jon S.

[Errata]

With that said, Koz, for example, at 22 in 1888 may not have experienced an episode yet so if he committed the crimes his later illness may be a moot point. Great food for thought but as usual I don’t think it gets us anywhere……………….

Greg

Well, stress, poverty, alcohol or drug use all accelerate the onset and development of the illness. If Kosminski was schizophrenic, he had become symptomatic by 22. However he may not yet have become delusional. Which would mean that he would have the disqualifying symptoms of schizophrenia (avolition, alogia, disorganized behavior, thought disorder) BEFORE he had the qualifying symptoms (hallucinations, delusions and paranoia). Which would be sadly ironic.

[Errata]

Only because you 'think' he ate those organs?

So long as we acknowledge all the caveats and do not forget we are in the realm of speculation, any conclusions just might have value.

All the best, Jon S.

Actually I think Pica has a shot because the most common causes of violence and aggressive behavior is substance abuse, certain types of poisoning, and chemical imbalances in the body.

Hypoglycemia is one, Porphyria is one, certain mineral imbalances, lead poisoning is a popular one, acid/base imbalance, acidosis, etc.

Now porphyria and hypoglycemia were known back then, and would have been diagnosed as a child (or the child simply would not have survived to adulthood), in adult onset, it also would have been diagnosed pretty quickly. Management was also known, so for someone with either to have a series of acute attacks resulting in violence would require either a deliberate departure from their diet, or an involuntary one.

Lead poisoning was nowhere near as common as it had been 50 years earlier. They knew paintresses were dying, and they figured out why. In 1888 lead poisoning was achieved either through a single or very few massive doses, typically as a child, or through the slow ingestion of small amounts of lead. Which ladies used to do to clear their complexion, but had stopped. In an adult, Pica would be a reasonable assumption for eating small amounts of lead.

Chemical imbalances can be innate, or can achieved. Acidosis for example is a not uncommon result of poisoning, or from consuming certain types of alcohol (bathtub gin for example). Mineral imbalances can be achieved by consuming things that absorb or prevent the absorption of other minerals. Or again they can be innate.

But Pica can cause all of the these things. Or aggravate them. Therefore, a case can be made that an individual with Pica could become so ill with a number of other illnesses that they become uncontrollably violent and aggressive.

But for the record, I don't think Jack the Ripper had Pica.

[GregBaron]

What type of Illness?

I had to wonder if this thread was inspired by Kosminski with the intent of bringing forth some symptoms that might help us understand him as the principal suspect he appears to be.

Yes Wickerman, this thread was inspired by Koz and others(JI, Hyam etc…) who seem to have been schizophrenic. I was wondering if such a person could have committed these crimes or some of these crimes. Thanks to you and Errata for keeping the thread going…….it’s great that Errata seems to have a great deal of knowledge of mental illness. I remember something we used to say back in the day that if somebody does something ‘crazy’ they are crazy or if someone does something 'insane' they are insane. Crazy is as crazy does was another one. By this definition JTR was certainly insane but many of us, myself included, assumed him to have a personality disorder a la Ted Bundy. I had never considered schizophrenia and when I did it made me wonder about how that might affect our examining of the evidence. As someone pointed out, Chapman’s murder seemed fairly methodical considering the outrageous risk taking while MJK’s seems the mania of an out of control schizophrenic. I also wondered if it likely a schizophrenic would write the graffito or send taunting letters to the authorities? Just kind of thinking out loud here…….With that said, Koz, for example, at 22 in 1888 may not have experienced an episode yet so if he committed the crimes his later illness may be a moot point. Great food for thought but as usual I don’t think it gets us anywhere……………….


Greg

[Wickerman]

I tried writing my thesis on Bipolar, but since I HAVE Bipolar it was considered unsportsmanlike. Thus the switch to DID.

I think If we are going to look back and try to determine if Jack the Ripper could have been mentally ill (which he could have) then we need to decide if we need his mental illness to be responsible for his behavior.

Naturally, and because we cannot say for sure we must adopt a multiple-choice position.
If 'Yes' then select a), b), or c), etc. as optional causes.
Determining any potential clues from what we know in crime scene evidence will always be open to debate.

So If we need a mental illness that would be responsible for his crimes, we need to look for diseases that either cause or inspire violence, but do not have other symptoms that would make committing the crimes more difficult.

Yes, and the perpetrator appears to retain all his senses and decision making abilites, knowing right from wrong, the ability to avoid capture, etc. While in this 'mental' state.
Likewise, when out of 'state' he may have no memory retention, but that is not certain, especially if he lives alone.

If we are looking at the mental illnesses of potential suspects, that's actually a lot more complicated. Kosminski actually has some hospital records we could look at.

Yes, but those records are late, we have no clues as to Kosminski's mental state in 1888, at 23 yrs old.
With most suspects we have no clear knowledge of their mental state, in fact we do not know enough about any contemporary suspect to determine if they even had a mental condition.

Bethnal Green Man... delusions of grandeur isn't nearly enough. Any number of illnesses can cause that, and in and of itself it is not a symptom generally lending itself to violence.

Agreed, and, it's only a suggestion. This man may not have had any such disorders. What we read about this man may have been his natural attitude to women. And, he may have dressed normal for his status.

I can however make a spectacular argument that Jack the Ripper had Pica. Well, not that spectacular. But entertaining.

Only because you 'think' he ate those organs?

So long as we acknowledge all the caveats and do not forget we are in the realm of speculation, any conclusions just might have value.

All the best, Jon S.

[Errata]

Hi Errata.
While not meaning to derail the Schizophrenic thread, I just wanted to ask you briefly if your thesis paper included Bipolar Disorder?
Regards, Jon S.

I tried writing my thesis on Bipolar, but since I HAVE Bipolar it was considered unsportsmanlike. Thus the switch to DID.

I think If we are going to look back and try to determine if Jack the Ripper could have been mentally ill (which he could have) then we need to decide if we need his mental illness to be responsible for his behavior. For example, there was a guy in town here who was a serial rapist. He was also Bipolar. He was not a serial rapist because he was Bipolar. The illness had nothing to do with the crime. If we do not require his mental illness to be a factor in his crimes, then it seems to me it hardly matters if he was mentally ill, but different criteria would be required.

So If we need a mental illness that would be responsible for his crimes, we need to look for diseases that either cause or inspire violence, but do not have other symptoms that would make committing the crimes more difficult. So while a catatonic schizophrenic could have violent delusions, the catatonia rules him out of killing anyone.

If we need a mental illness that did not necessarily contribute to the crimes, we simply have to discard any exclusionary diseases. Like catatonia, or hysterical blindness.

If we are looking at the mental illnesses of potential suspects, that's actually a lot more complicated. Kosminski actually has some hospital records we could look at. It's those records that lends me to believe he was not schizophrenic, but schizoaffective (think blend of schizophrenia and Bipolar). Bethnal Green Man... delusions of grandeur isn't nearly enough. Any number of illnesses can cause that, and in and of itself it is not a symptom generally lending itself to violence. Well, not towards committing violence. I'm sure they get punched in the face quite a bit.

In regards to Bipolar, could someone with Bipolar have committed these crimes? Absolutely. If it was for reasons related to the disease, it would pretty much have to have occurred in the manic phase. Which is when you get grandiose behavior, but also some people experience rage and violence in this phase. Bipolar in and of itself does not lend itself to being a serial killer. Given the transient nature of the moods, you see more spree killers with it. But Bipolar is very prone to comorbidity (being present with another mental illness) and the combination of the right ones could create a Jack the Ripper. I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I imagine anyone familiar with mental illnesses could come up with a few.

One thing that needs to be said. In 1888 there were no medications, no therapy, no successful behavior modification. Nothing but containment. The mentally ill have no way of escaping their torment except through drink and drugs. Probably 90% of the mentally ill in 1888 are going to work very hard at drinking themselves to death. Binge drinking is still extremely common with the undiagnosed mentally ill today. Its self medicating with whatever is at hand, and thats usually booze. It doesn't work, but very few people are self aware enough to realize that in the long run they are making it worse. Someone sick enough (especially with a mood disorder) to be Jack the Ripper has a very good chance of being too drunk to have done it.

I can however make a spectacular argument that Jack the Ripper had Pica. Well, not that spectacular. But entertaining.

[Wickerman]

Hi Errata.
While not meaning to derail the Schizophrenic thread, I just wanted to ask you briefly if your thesis paper included Bipolar Disorder?

I had to wonder if this thread was inspired by Kosminski with the intent of bringing forth some symptoms that might help us understand him as the principal suspect he appears to be.

On the other hand we have an apparent 'nutcase' who was known to accost women across the East end. This man, who may have had delusions of grandure has no name, but is a definite person of interest, though is willingly ignored by everybody.

Delusions of Grandeur are symptoms of both Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder.

With Kosminski we need to find a description & some activity in the East end. With the Bethnal Green man we have a description & a record of his activity in the East end, but no name.

Much to the shagrin of many, I think they are equally plausible suspects.

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Thankyou Errata.
I was aware of the shift to calling this D.I.D. but wasn't sure everyone would make the connection (most are still more familiar with M.P.D.).

Excellent, another informative post, and helpfull too.
Thankyou, Jon S.

Good to know a thesis paper for a degree I never completed comes in handy finally.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Errata.
I was aware of the shift to calling this D.I.D. but wasn't sure everyone would make the connection (most are still more familiar with M.P.D.).

Excellent, another informative post, and helpfull too.
Thankyou, Jon S.

[Errata]

Hello Errata.
Thankyou for an interesting post.
Let me ask you then, considering numerous people were being accused of being Jack the Ripper, how would this play out in the real world?

All the best, Jon S.

Okay. Here is where it pays off to use the correct terminology, which I absolutely didn't do. Multiple Personality Disorder is no longer called that, because it created a series of false impressions about the disease, the major one being that there are multiple personalities involved. There aren't. It is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder. And it is a much more accurate name.

When I talk about cores, perceived self, puppet-master, whatever, these are not separate complete personalities. The perceived self is a mostly fully functioning personality. It is the I in team so to speak. The core is a concept. It is the person who existed and was harmed by the astonishing abuse required for this disease. The core is is considered the innocent and severely damaged origin. But it is just a concept. By seeing a core and putting it in a safe place, the victim is free to rebuild without the damage of the abuse. But the truth is that the victim is merely sequestering those memories. No other self is created.

The all knowing personality, or the controller, is also not a whole separate personality. It simply has access to all of the memories, like you or I do, but with no emotional attachment to them. Really with DID, you aren't seeing different personalities, just rigorously segmented pieces of one personality.

It's like a truly exceptional filing system. For each emotion or expectation there are certain memories that can be accessed, and certain emotions. The segment that drives clearly has access to information about driving, road etiquette, etc. It cannot access panic. And likely cannot access any information on cooking. It's why several sufferers have "personalities" who are artists. Artistic ability has to be kept separate because it requires imagination, and that can be dangerous.


It is not like a broken mirror, where every shard can act as the whole did. It is more like a broken mural, where each piece has a portion of the whole picture.

One of the most terrifying things for people with this kind of abusive background and these issues is sex. And many sufferers never manage it. But those who do, who marry and have children etc. Have a "personality" who has sex. This segment of the personality can seduce, can flirt, can crave intimacy, can have sex. No other segment can. And this becomes necessary because these behaviours are appalling and dangerous do someone who is just so damaged from abuse. People who suffer the same orgy of sexual and physical abuse who do not dissociate pass out, or throw up, or will try to kill themselves rather than exhibit these behaviors, which as far as they are concerned are inviting the abuse back. It is not a seductive personality. It is the seductive part of the personality, with the memories and emotions for other segments cut off. However the knowledge of other people having sex is rarely distressing. Unwanted sexual advances would have to be dealt with, but by a segment that can politely decline, not by killing people. Being propositioned would absolutely create panic, but the DID sufferer survives by appearing to function normally. Taking uteri is not normal.

So a Jack the Ripper personality is not a separate self. It is the same person, only with access to certain memories and certain emotions. When not Jack the Ripper, the man would be other pieces of himself, until he gets back to the perceived self which is a high functioning segment, or a mostly whole person. Other segments would have access to some of JTRs memories, or some of the emotions. If the JTR segment were relatively new, other segments would perceive something as very wrong. Any part that had access to the memories would know without a doubt what was going on. But any benign segment who comes to covered in blood or ripping into a prostitute is going to quite simply freak out, shut down, and bring up the segment that deals with nasty surprises.

Here's where it get complicated. Memories leak. Happens all the time. Usually there is a quick shuffle and everything sorts itself out, but inevitably, the perceived self becomes aware that there are memories and emotions not its own. And it starts to become aware of the other segments. Now if you don't know that your memory is not intact, or that there are emotions you do not have access to, how on earth do you process these memories and feelings? By personalizing them. You have someone elses memories. Or you process the memories as sensory input. So instead of remembering doing something, you remember seeing someone do something. Eventually it all breaks down, at which point a sufferer either chooses to "integrate", or perceive all of the separate segments as different people in their head. Multiple Personality Disorder was an accurate name in so far as that is how the sufferers perceive it. And with the brain, perception is 9/10s of the law.

A JtR "personality" would not be complete enough to deflect or deceive successfully. It would have the skill necessary to survive and do it's job. It could kill, it could mutilate, it could interact just enough to solicit, it could run and escape. A different segment would be necessary to deceive with any ability. And such a personality is a threat to the core. It is a threat to continued survival. Those memories and emotions could be walled off, effectively "killing it". But any leakage would cause massive problems. It is entirely likely that a segment or even the perceived self would be under the impression that they witnessed the crime. Or know they committed it.

The whole purpose of dissociating is to protect themselves from painful memories or emotions. It does not make sense to have a dissociated segment create more painful and frightening memories. Defeats the purpose. But even if somehow it were to happen, likely the whole construct would crumble. Certainly the unleashed anguish of a severely abused child being confronted with Jack the Rippers crimes would be life altering, if not life ending. If it were to happen, I would look for suicide or voluntary commitment.

But I will say this. People with DID do not act crazy. A little dotty, and sometimes maddeningly obtuse, but crazy does not spring to mind. Shifts are fluid and almost effortless, and unless you are carefully watching the rate at which they blink, or their posture, you would never know. Rapidly shifting fragments of personality are much less detectable, so safer, than some full person turning into a completely other person. Which is how you can tell if someone is faking.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Some prostitutes were desperate enough, and careless enough, to be game for anyone, regardless of the warnings.
All these victims had at least one character trait in common, - desperation.

Also, at least partially desperate specifically due to alcoholism?

[Wickerman]

....In fact, after the rumors surfaced that Jack might have been a medical doctor, they could have been even warier of a well-dressed and decidedly out-of-place customer.

Ah, thankyou Ben, thats sounds more like it.
"Could have been", is the same as saying "might have been", and just as equally "might not have been".
Out of at least 1200+ prostitutes who "might have been wary", we are only interested the handful (5?) who "might not have been so wary".

Once we dispense with 'absolutes' the possibilites tend to fall into place.
Some prostitutes were desperate enough, and careless enough, to be game for anyone, regardless of the warnings.
All these victims had at least one character trait in common, - desperation.

Thankyou, Jon S.

[Errata]

Fascinating.

But if the "others" thought the core and thus all of them would hang, would someone rat him out or would they perhap stuff him down and not allow him back out?

And therefore provide us with why the killings stopped?

curious

It's possible. Trudi Chase has spoken of one of her personalities being locked away. Although in that case it wasn't for violence but for being unable to cope.

The likelihood however is that the violent personality would be locked down immediately following the first overt act. So even if the personality made it to Polly Nichols, it would not have made it farther unless (and this is a big if) the personality with the whole picture, sometimes described as a puppet master or theater manager, deemed it necessary for survival. But I can't for the life of me see how this could possibly be seen as necessary.

There was a woman who had a personality specifically created to kill her abuser (her uncle). This personality was deemed necessary for survival. However the personality was given no way to accomplish it's mission. It did not have the ability to track him down, to look for him, even to ask family members about him. If she ran into him at a grocery store, that personality could kill him. But unless she randomly bumped into him, that personality was used only to store revenge fantasies. So despite the existence of a violent personality, it was hobbled to provide the others with the knowledge that the means for revenge existed, but not to place the woman in danger.

The brain is a very cool thing. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, but the brain is amazing.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Here's the relevant extract:

Jack would not look out of the ordinary. In my initial profile I suggested that the clothing he wore at the time of the assaults would not be his everyday dress, as he would want to project to unsuspecting females that he had money, so he wouldn't have to initiate contact. But experts on the era have since informed me that unlike most of the modern prostitutes that I have encountered in crime investigation, the Victorian East End prostitutes were so desperate they would have approached anyone, regardless of dress. In fact, after the rumors surfaced that Jack might have been a medical doctor, they could have been even warier of a well-dressed and decidedly out-of-place customer.

Yes, that seems like a more on-target theory. I don't imagine these poor drunk women were shy about approaching any man who was out for a stroll late at night.

Also...doesn't pertain to the Ripper, but just an interesting side note.. I was reading a modern day prostitute's memoirs, and she said one of the first things she was taught by other women on the street was to be VERY suspicious of men who offered significantly more than the going rate. These are customers who really want to get you alone somewhere, now. And in one way or another, you were going to have to earn that extra money that was offered...in ways that weren't negotiated during the pickup : ( So not only might these women have been suspicious of very well-dressed men who seemed out of place, but if the Ripper offered them a great deal of money, that should have set off alarm bells, as well.

[Ben]

Here's the relevant extract:

Jack would not look out of the ordinary. In my initial profile I suggested that the clothing he wore at the time of the assaults would not be his everyday dress, as he would want to project to unsuspecting females that he had money, so he wouldn't have to initiate contact. But experts on the era have since informed me that unlike most of the modern prostitutes that I have encountered in crime investigation, the Victorian East End prostitutes were so desperate they would have approached anyone, regardless of dress. In fact, after the rumors surfaced that Jack might have been a medical doctor, they could have been even warier of a well-dressed and decidedly out-of-place customer.