Was Jack or (were Jack’s) schizophrenic?

[Wickerman]

It's interesting that the popular image of this killer has become one of a dandified gentleman, out slumming, strolling through the fog in a dashing cape...almost as if he were a magician on an expensive stage..

Hi Mary.
True, and most of the silliest fiction ever written does include such a murderer. On the other hand there really was such a "well-dressed" nuisance who had been reported several times for accosting women.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=177401&postcount=1

This case became much scarier to me when I read a more modern criminal profile of what the killer was probably like: A man of average appearance and mild enough outward manner that he did not attract attention.

In Philip Sugden's book, John Douglas (Criminal Profiler)..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Douglas

suggests, "... that the killer may have intentionally dressed up to persuade potential victims that he had money and thus relieve himself of the task of initiating contact with them. Whatever, the evidence is that we will not find our man amongst the labouring classes or indigent poor"
The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, 1995, p 367.

And so, the debate continues....

Regards, Jon S.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Some of us even want him to be a Toff; handsome, sophisticated, wealthy, well dressed and a vampire phantom – beyond normal human constraints. Few will deny the romance involved. The reality is probably much more mundane and seedy as real life tends to be.

It's interesting that the popular image of this killer has become one of a dandified gentleman, out slumming, strolling through the fog in a dashing cape...almost as if he were a magician on an expensive stage.

This case became much scarier to me when I read a more modern criminal profile of what the killer was probably like: A man of average appearance and mild enough outward manner that he did not attract attention. Their conclussion that he lived right in the Whitechapel area and therefor knew its layout, hiding places and schedules is also deeply disquieting...in that by extension, he could be your neighbor, my neighbor, etc (!!!)

[Errata]

I think Errata's statement above is very telling..........it would appear that the slyness evidenced in these crimes would require a schizophrenic to be in a lucid period at least and if we consider someone like Koz who was 22 or 23 at this time then maybe his illness was just beginning and he committed these crimes between bouts of 'craziness'.

Greg

It's not even about slyness. Take Chapman for instance. He had to find her, kill her, take her uterus, possibly arrange things at her feet, and get out. That requires a sense of purpose and order that disorganized schizophrenics don't have. All things considered it was a pretty neat job, and clearly time management and a series of logical steps were involved. Disorganized schizophrenics are incredibly amotivated. They don't pursue goals, they don't don't plan, they don't take care of themselves, often they don't even speak. The idea that someone like that could one night decide to go hunt prey, and retrieve a specific organ from a victim in a place that without care could mean discovery is just not likely. A lucid schizophrenic is not an asymptomatic schizophrenic. They just aren't delusional.

Besides, schizophrenia occurs in slightly less than 1% of the population. There simply aren't a bunch of "wandering schizophrenics", much less violent ones.

[GregBaron]

No experts on schizophrenia...

Good answers both of you and thanks....

And if a schizophrenic was killing during a non-delusional period, then it hardly matters that they were schizophrenic.

I think Errata's statement above is very telling..........it would appear that the slyness evidenced in these crimes would require a schizophrenic to be in a lucid period at least and if we consider someone like Koz who was 22 or 23 at this time then maybe his illness was just beginning and he committed these crimes between bouts of 'craziness'.

But at the same time I'm not sure we can count out Nichols for example as falling prey to a wandering schizophrenic who caught her unawares or even was in control enough to talk her into a sojourn to Buck's row...this is something I'm trying to get my head around....is this possible while in 'episode'.

I think we must also remember that most of the women were drunk and/or hungover and their antennas of observation were probably not at their best....

I'd love to hear further commentary or ideas about this issue........

Greg

[Errata]

What I’m wondering from you guys is how many of you believe the murderer or murderers (was/were) schizophrenic and if so - how might this change our thinking on the mystery itself?

Greg

I think there is as equal a chance of Jack the Ripper suffering from some kind of mental illness as not.

I tend to dismiss schizophrenia as a possibility. Certainly it is not impossible for Schizophrenics to be serial killers. However most of these crimes require a level of organization and planning than disorganized schizophrenics are capable of. Paranoid schizophrenics tend to be much higher functioning, but also MUCH more conspicuous. Given the depth of their delusions, it would be almost impossible for them to successfully solicit a prostitute during a delusional period. And if a schizophrenic was killing during a non-delusional period, then it hardly matters that they were schizophrenic.

Of course, Catatonics are right out.

I think mood disorders are possible, I think obsessive compulsive disorder is possible, rage disorders, some of the more spectacular personality disorders are certainly possible (actually quite likely), it could be a paraphilia, even certain kinds of epilepsy are possible.

Unfortunately, to go back more than 100 years to try and diagnose a killer, we need the motive. And we don't have one. We can compile a list of mental illnesses that are not contrary to what we know to be true, but that's about it.

[Rubyretro]

Hi Greg -

Well, first of all I don't know very much about schizophrenia. Certainly, I have a friend who is schizphrenic, and I have mentioned him before in a post -he is very intelligent and a gifted business man, and some women find him intelligent and charismatic. He is flamboyant. However, when he is having an 'episode' (due to stopping the drugs) he is terrifyingly violent and
'strange' and anyone could see that he is bizarre and dangerous from one end of the road to the other, and they naturally give him a wide berth.

I started my post with '"I don't know very much about schizophrenia" because it was pointed out to me that there are diffrent forms of the illness, and it is not always so physically apparent. Certainly, I can't see anyone like my friend Didier getting prostitutes (or anyone else) to even speak to him, let alone go to a quiet place with him, when he's in a 'crisis'.

The Ted Bundy type killer seems far more plausible, and once again I will mention Danilo Restivo -arrested in the UK within the last month- who seems the archytypal 'Jack' type killer (no suggestion of schizophrenia though).

[GregBaron]

In rereading some dissertations and threads I’ve come across Jacob Isenschmid, Hyam Hyams, Aaron Kozminski and others all of whom were most likely paranoid schizophrenics. It made me wonder if some sort of epidemic was underway in East London or there only seems so many because they are Ripper suspects? This could only be answered by a psychologist and super statistician.

Anyway, keeping in mind the FBI fellow Douglass and many of us who say if the Ripper or Ripper’s wasn’t Aaron Kozminski then it was someone like him, schizophrenia is something we should come to terms with. I think many of us want Jack to be a clever psychopath a la Ted Bundy. We want him to be smart and charming and one who outwits and makes fools of the police and authorities. Some of us even want him to be a Toff; handsome, sophisticated, wealthy, well dressed and a vampire phantom – beyond normal human constraints. Few will deny the romance involved. The reality is probably much more mundane and seedy as real life tends to be.

Rob House’s book makes an excellent case for the existence of schizophrenic serial killers; even psychopathic schizophrenic serial killers – a witches brew indeed. There is a term called ‘lust murderers’ where vile disemboweling and/or other cannibalistic acts are part of the MO. The idea of multiple schizophrenic disembowel-ers trolling Whitechapel seems hard to fathom but apparently there were lots of them(schizophrenics) around. Discounting copycats and political motives, I find it hard to believe for example that the murderer of MJK wasn’t a delusional schizophrenic. The overkill speaks of extremely disordered thinking. Even so, I think we also need to get away from the idea of the ‘drooling, masturbating vagrant eating out of the gutters’ idea. Schizophrenics have episodes, delusions come and go, behavior is rational within whatever delusion their mind is entertaining. It doesn’t mean these people can’t dress themselves or take a bath or plan an event or anything of the kind. Their healthy mind is still in there and assumes control at times. I know a few on the boards have a great deal of knowledge on this subject and have given good information on other threads and can probably speak better than I on the illness. What I’m wondering from you guys is how many of you believe the murderer or murderers (was/were) schizophrenic and if so - how might this change our thinking on the mystery itself?

Apologize for the long post………sorry if it appears muddled………..

Greg