Mary Jane Kelly was Jack The Ripper

[Sarah]

Interestingly (for me anyway ) I posted a joke theory about this very thing a few years back. I even made some fairly interesting observations about the evidence to hand to back this up. I think however this just shows the evidence seems to be able to be manipulated in so many ways.

[Hatchett]

Hi Sarah,

Yes, I think that is the danger. There is so much, possible sightings, conflict of evidence, a mutltiude of facts and hearsay, theories, and a vast amount of information. I suppose if you are selective you could actually back up, to some extent, any theory that you wanted to.

At the time of the murders there was so much local hysteria that there were possibly hundreds of folk tales and beliefs as to who the killer was, all expanded and no doubt believed by small groups of people.

Where they originated, and on what motives etc they are based is probably lost in the telling and retelling.

I think though an important point on that one is that it seperates the Kelly murder from the rest. In this case because she is the killer. Maybe that is the real importance of local or folk feeling. That there was something different about the death of Mary Kelly.

Just a thought.

Best wishes.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

Following on from that, another point is if that really was a sort of folk tale told at the time, then it shows a lack of sympathy towards Mary Kelly (to say the least) and perhaps displays a feeling held by some that she wasnt really part of the community, or that she wasnt liked for some reason by a proportion of it.

Best wishes.

[Sarah]

Hi,

.... then it shows a lack of sympathy towards Mary Kelly (to say the least) and perhaps displays a feeling held by some that she wasnt really part of the community, or that she wasnt liked for some reason by a proportion of it.

Best wishes.

I'm not sure about this - perhaps it's more simply the mystery surrounding her murder and imaginations running overtime. Unfortunately they may not have even considered her as a person. But that's just my thoughts.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

It depends where and when (and if ) that particular folk tale originates. Whitechapel, Spittlefields et all was a very small area. The people were closely packed, and closely knitted. It is interesting that the witness statements all appear to describe people from outside the area. For a folk tale to start in that locality at that time, you would have supposed that it would have held a core of sympathy for the victim. In this case if it didn't then that really is something that sticks out and is worthy of research, if that is possible.

Best wishes.

[DVV]

I take it as a part of the so-called "Kelly romance".
And I consider this romance as a popular expression of the irresistible and diffuse impression that she's the key, apex and solution of the murders.

[Sarah]

I take it as a part of the so-called "Kelly romance".
And I consider this romance as a popular expression of the irresistible and diffuse impression that she's the key, apex and solution of the murders.

I agree - no matter how tempting it is to go down the route of "romanticising" Mary, I think in all probability she was just another prostitute who fell foul of the Ripper's blade.

Hatchett - I do see your point. I suppose in a tight-knit community you would expect people to be more sympathetic to a fellow member. It is interesting.

Are we sure this accusation wasn't just one person's opinion rather that a community idea?

[Hatchett]

Hi Sarah,

Yes, that is the danger. Was it one person's view, or perhaps one persons idea expressed in a pub after a couple of gallons of ale.

Best wishes.

[The Bounder]

The relative who I first heard this 'theory' from had no interest in the ripper murders, to my knowledge never read a book on the subject and didn't know to any great extent any of the facts about the case, therefore I find it hard to believe that they would come to this conclusion by themselves, they only mentioned the theory to us (the family) in an off handed manner when they realised my interest in the case or when programmes were on the TV about the murders (such as the big Michael Caine production released for the centeanery). Obviously I was a lot younger when I first heard them retell this tale and didn't think I would eventually go down the road of trying to research such things myself, or that my interest would grow beyond reading the occassional book on the subject, and so stupidly I never thought to ask them where they first heard the MJK theory.

[Hatchett]

Hi Bounder,

Life is full of missed opportunties. Dont dispair. It is still a topic worthy of research.

Good luck and best wishes. Who knows you may find the key to the mystery at the end.

David.

[Vfor]

Mary Jane Kelly is my prime JTR suspect. I give my evidences reasons below including a few added ones from the 2 threads on this here (I hope it is not too long but it is necessary to give all the evidences). Previously I had various candidates but when I read through the 200 pages court cases records on the 5 + victims I saw they were weak and I newly saw MJK as a suspect.

Mary Jane Kelly was sometimes called Jane Kelly, and Jack(y) the Ripper's name Jack may come from the initials Ja.K. (MJK is also related to John Kelly whose name and initials are similar to Jane Kelly's.)

The (Eddowes? and) "Mary Jane Kelly" murder(s) is/are the only one(s) of the 5/6/7/11 WC/JTR murders that stand(s) out in various ways. (Also note that Eddowes was also connected with the names Jane Kelly and John Kelly and Mary Ann Kelly, and with Dorset St, and with face mutilation.)

The name (Saucy) Jacky may indicate a female.

Sir AC Doyle suggested a female JTR ("Jill the Ripper").

JTR and MJK were in the same Whitechapel area. Some forum posters said JTR must've been in or familiar with Spitalfields. "All the identified victims lived in the heart of the rookery in Spitalfields, including three in George Street (later named Lolesworth Street), two in Dorset Street, two in Flower and Dean Street and one in Thrawl Street." "All roads lead to Dorset Street". MJK was in Dorset street, Spitalfields.

"By using the latest geographical profiling techniques based on the locations of the Ripper’s five victims, experts believe the Victorian serial killer lived in Flower and Dean Street in London’s notorious East End." "All the victims lived very close to Flower and Dean Street."
MJK lived in Dorset Street which is only two streets away from Flower & Dean Street on the other side of a main road.

"witnesses who sighted her (MJK) on Dorset Street at seemingly impossible times".

MJK was seen talking with an Jewish man before the murder in a way which seemed like maybe he was going to help her with something big/good (like disappearing) ("you will be alright for what I have told you", puts right hand on shoulder). Perhaps also the "Juwes" graffiti and the Jewish man have a connection? MJK was a scholar so she may have known the Yiddish spelling Juwes?

"The body said to be hers was mutilated beyond recognition so there is no way to say 100% it was her."

The mutilation of the body of the "Mary Jane Kelly" victim all seems to fit mutilating/marring/removing all identifier features of a body. The clothes were removed, unlike the other JTR/WC murders. Clothes/stuff was burnt, like when destroying evidence? Compare Stewart says the murderess burnt her own clothes in the grate & made her escape wearing Kelly's clothes.

"MJK" was only identified (by Barnett) by ear & eyes.

MJK was seen by two independent witnesses the day after the murder wearing clothes that were not hers.

Barnett (also a JTR suspect) gave his evidence very well, like as if maybe he was prepared?

Why did the police say the vigilance group's services were no longer required after the MJK murder, and they removed the extra police at/about same time too? "The great hush after MJK"?
Compare that the "crimes ended because of the culprit's death"?
MJK is the last of the 5 canonical murders.

MJK was always seen with a spotless white apron.

MJK was "superior to that of most persons in her position in life", & very "quiet" (and often people claim that it is the quiet ones that are the real bad ones).

MJK said "whatever you do don't turn out like me".

Certain MJK case papers went missing and they were only returned in 1987 on the 100th anniversary of JTR (compare how census not relased for 50/100 yrs for privacy reasons until people are dead).

"Sickert stayed in a room that JTR is said to have once stayed in", which sounds like MJK's room?

MJK's father was in the iron works which might connect with JTR's very sharp knife?

JTR seems to of probably had female anatomical knowledge. A woman might have female anatomical knowledge.

Women can multi-task unlike men (re expert-like surgical speed).

Anatomical/surgical knowledge may fit with MJK being a woman & "an excellent scholar" & artist.

MJK was an aritist which might connect with JTR was adept with a knife, and/or with writing in blood, etc?

A woman may have escaped notice/suspicion because people/witnesses at the scene would have naturally been sub/consiously more on lookout for man.

A woman would be more trusted and less suspected by the victims, and may have canceled out the having to be strong enough to man-handle the victim?

JTR shown with "a moustache and a big floppy hat", which seems like disguise to hide a woman.

"DNA from one of the ripper letters was female."
MJK was a female.

The language of the postcard/letters/graffitio ("cuss", "Mister Lusk", etc) seems like either a lower/working class person or a youth or a female. (This may also fit with MJK speaking Welsh?)

"the writing analysis said that the person wrote as if they were from Ireland." "an Irish dialect could be detected in one of the letters".
"MJK spoke frequently about how much she wants to go back home to Ireland."

Seems strange the table behind door in MJK's room...?

JTR was "some independent genius". MJK was "superior to that of most persons in her position in life", and was a scholar and an artist.

"a relative who grew up in the area of the killings in the 1920's was adamant that 'everyone knew Mary Jane Kelly was the Ripper'".

The Puck poster has a woman-like person with a knife in the top right hand corner?

In the American "JTR" murder case notes it was said JTR was still in London.

JTR letter said "from Hell". Compare "Whitechapel was considered to be the most notorious criminal rookery in London. The area around Flower and Dean Street was described as "perhaps the foulest and most dangerous street in the whole metropolis". Dorset Street was called "the worst street in London". JTR must have been in Whitechapel area. MJK was in Dorset Street.

"The murders drew attention to the poor living conditions in the East End slums...." Which may indicate that JTR was in Whitechapel , and that "he" was a prostitute?

JTR letter said "I'm not a Yid (Jew) nor yet a foreign skipper but I'm your own light-hearted friend", which fits someone like MJK.

Casebook.org admin's email "queen mean" suggests a female JTR?

MJK was at 13 Miller's Court, and is also connected with Room 13? 13 is a "bad" number.

One or two or a few others have already/also proposed MJK as a JTR suspect.

Every other possibility I have considered falls apart, while this one makes the most sense (though there is possibly maybe some uncertainty on whether JTR was MJK or someone connected with MJK or Eddowes, &/or ...). None of the usual suspects (like those listed in the Wikipedia JTR suspects article) quite fit.

[DJA]

[Vfor]

Not sure what that means, its not very good/nice or helpful response. Only discussing actual evidences details matters/helps.

[c.d.]

Hello Vfor,

Welcome to the boards.

You put forth an interesting theory and one that you have obviously spent a lot of time developing. However, it seems that a lot of your points can be dismissed as pure coincidence or are unverifiable. Once you put on MJK glasses everything appears to be MJK. But continue your research by all means.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=Vfor;n748147]Mary Jane Kelly is my prime JTR suspect. I give my evidences reasons below including a few added ones from the 2 threads on this here (I hope it is not too long but it is necessary to give all the evidences). Previously I had various candidates but when I read through the 200 pages court cases records on the 5 + victims I saw they were weak and I newly saw MJK as a suspect.

Other suspects are weak?

Mary Jane Kelly was sometimes called Jane Kelly, and Jack(y) the Ripper's name Jack may come from the initials Ja.K. (MJK is also related to John Kelly whose name and initials are similar to Jane Kelly's.)

Wordplay and anagrams can be found within any case if you look for them.

The (Eddowes? and) "Mary Jane Kelly" murder(s) is/are the only one(s) of the 5/6/7/11 WC/JTR murders that stand(s) out in various ways. (Also note that Eddowes was also connected with the names Jane Kelly and John Kelly and Mary Ann Kelly, and with Dorset St, and with face mutilation.)

Chapman having her entrails thrown over her shoulder doesn’t ‘stand out?’

The name (Saucy) Jacky may indicate a female.

Or a man.

Sir AC Doyle suggested a female JTR ("Jill the Ripper").

You’ll find no bigger Doyle fan than me but this was a man fooled by paper cut out fairies.

JTR and MJK were in the same Whitechapel area. Some forum posters said JTR must've been in or familiar with Spitalfields. "All the identified victims lived in the heart of the rookery in Spitalfields, including three in George Street (later named Lolesworth Street), two in Dorset Street, two in Flower and Dean Street and one in Thrawl Street." "All roads lead to Dorset Street". MJK was in Dorset street, Spitalfields.

Local knowledge would be applicable to thousands.

"By using the latest geographical profiling techniques based on the locations of the Ripper’s five victims, experts believe the Victorian serial killer lived in Flower and Dean Street in London’s notorious East End." "All the victims lived very close to Flower and Dean Street."
MJK lived in Dorset Street which is only two streets away from Flower & Dean Street on the other side of a main road.

Again this applies to thousands.

"witnesses who sighted her (MJK) on Dorset Street at seemingly impossible times".

Witnesses can and often do make mistakes.

MJK was seen talking with an Jewish man before the murder in a way which seemed like maybe he was going to help her with something big/good (like disappearing) ("you will be alright for what I have told you", puts right hand on shoulder). Perhaps also the "Juwes" graffiti and the Jewish man have a connection? MJK was a scholar so she may have known the Yiddish spelling Juwes?

Sorry but you’re clutching at straws big time here Vfor.

"The body said to be hers was mutilated beyond recognition so there is no way to say 100% it was her."

No but 99.999% is good enough.

The mutilation of the body of the "Mary Jane Kelly" victim all seems to fit mutilating/marring/removing all identifier features of a body. The clothes were removed, unlike the other JTR/WC murders. Clothes/stuff was burnt, like when destroying evidence? Compare Stewart says the murderess burnt her own clothes in the grate & made her escape wearing Kelly's clothes.

William Stewart’s book is probably considered as unreliable a book on the case as you could get. If someone was trying to hide the fact that the body was Kelly why kill her in her own room undressed on her own bed? Makes no sense at all.

"MJK" was only identified (by Barnett) by ear & eyes.

True.

MJK was seen by two independent witnesses the day after the murder wearing clothes that were not hers.

How do you or how did they know what clothes Mary owned? The witnesses were mistaken. It happens.

Barnett (also a JTR suspect) gave his evidence very well, like as if maybe he was prepared?

Come on Vfor. Many people were competent witnesses. Barnett wasn’t a drooling idiot so why is it surprising that he gave evidence well?

Why did the police say the vigilance group's services were no longer required after the MJK murder, and they removed the extra police at/about same time too? "The great hush after MJK"?

I can’t recall the details but I’m pretty sure that it’s been shown that police patrols weren’t reduced after Kelly. James Monro for example believed that Mackenzie was a ripper victim.

Compare that the "crimes ended because of the culprit's death"?
MJK is the last of the 5 canonical murders.

I think that Kelly was probably the last victim but many disagree. We can’t say for certain that she was the final victim.

MJK was always seen with a spotless white apron.

I can’t see the relevance even if it were true.

MJK was "superior to that of most persons in her position in life", & very "quiet" (and often people claim that it is the quiet ones that are the real bad ones).

Im sorry but surely you can’t mean this? I don’t think that she was known to be quiet when drunk? And if I remember correctly Emma Smith was also someone that had known much better times?

MJK said "whatever you do don't turn out like me".

A prostitute.