Mary Jane Kelly was Jack The Ripper

[Vfor]

Sorry just a p.s.

Regarding the possible Jane Kelly = Ja. K...(y) = Jack names match which some have disputed here and on the facebook JTR groups/pages I have since done some refreshing on JTR and some research on the name Jack and found the following:

Firstly, currently no one is able to be sure whether the JTR letters were or weren't written by "JTR" or by a hoaxer. So it is possible that the letters and their first mention of the name JTR might not have been "JTR's", though it is also still possible that they were.

Secondly if they were written by "JTR" then currently no one can be certain whether his/her choice of the name Jack was or was not for a personal name/names connection reason. I found that it is possible Jack could have just been chosen for the reason that "The word jack is also commonly used in other contexts in English for many occupations, objects and actions, linked to the use of the word as a metaphor for a common man."
"Whatever its origins, both the name and the word "jack" were long used as a term to refer to any man, especially of the common classes." "The history of the word (jack) is linked to the name being used as a by-name for a man." Plus the letter called it a trade name which is maybe similar to Jack of all trades?

So its currently impossible to prove either way whether the name Jack does or doesn't have a personal name connection with the murderer.

[Ally]

Casebook.org admin's email "queen mean" suggests a female JTR?.

No, it doesn't. It suggests the email address of a woman with a short temper, and shorter patience for idiotic theories and the people who make wild extrapolations even when they don't attempt to drag me into their stupidity. I really suggest you don't do that again if you want to remain on the boards. I rarely make time to post now but you and this kind of nonsense is just the sort that will get my special kind of attention and you really, really don't want that.

Hugs and Kisses,

[Vfor]

Thanks for clearing that point up. I accept that that one is wrong.

I certainly will do my best not to get in the bad. So I will leave this MJK topic here unless anyone else wishes to comment on any points in future. Except I don't think it is wholly fair or true that my MJK theory is idiotic or wild. It might possibly well be wrong (I am seeing it less likely than I did before, though I can't yet be sure it is not right), and it might even possibly be abit silly unbeknown to me (the fluoridation seems to make us more stupid), but I thought I had a fairly good set of seeming evidences. I may not be as much of an expert in this subject as others but I have done a certain amount of research and I always try to objectively find the truth and check and correct any wrongs. It was only reading through the 250 pages pdf of the 11 cases (which I can't seem to find again online now) a few years ago that gave me anymuch actual good info, and even reading that I could not find any common thread or sense except when I got to MJK....

I will just add this reply to the previous post:

"Define "stands out"? Stride's murder stands out because she wasn't mutilated. Martha Tabram and MJK were the only ones killed inside. Eddowes had the face markings. One could create "stand out" definitions for any one, or any group of them."

Unfortunately I did not record and can't refind and remember all of my original sources and all the fuller details of my evidences points (which I first came up with a few or more years ago now). Also I am majorly hampered in that I can't seem to find online anywhere the 250 pages pdf of the court cases records which I once read through a few years ago. However below are possibly some of the reasons why I thought/felt that the (Eddowes? and) MJK murder(s) is/are the only one/ones that stand out more than the other murders.

MJK stands out most of the 5/6/7/11 murders because:
- It was "the most savage", with the mutilation of all identifying features of the body.
- Unlike the other victims her clothes were removed.
- It was the only one of the 5 canonical done inside
- It was a longer time durtaion (2 hours)
- It is the last of the 5 canonical JTR murders
- "The great hush after MJK."
- MJK is also the only victim to have 5 other major names/nicknames listed.

I only said Eddowes maybe or maybe doesn't also stand out 2nd after MJK. I'm not sure why I thought Eddowes maybe also stands out, but some of the reasons may possibly have included:
- It was a double murder event.

Eddowes & MJK have some common connections or similarities including: Eddowes is also associated with the names Kate Kelly and Mary Ann Kelly and/or Jane Kelly? and John Kelly. Eddowes "was reported to have slept rough in Dorset street." Both associated with face mutilation, and abdomen mutilation.

[DJA]

Red Queen : OFF WITH HIS HEAD! (Alice In Wonderland) - YouTube

[caz]

No, it doesn't. It suggests the email address of a woman with a short temper, and shorter patience for idiotic theories and the people who make wild extrapolations even when they don't attempt to drag me into their stupidity. I really suggest you don't do that again if you want to remain on the boards. I rarely make time to post now but you and this kind of nonsense is just the sort that will get my special kind of attention and you really, really don't want that.

Hugs and Kisses,

Hi Ally,

Interesting username for our newcomer. Someone with lots of time on their hands, hoping to keep others busy responding.

Vfor... Vendetta?

Hope you and Stephen have a safe and healthy festive season, away from the nonsense.

Love,

Caz
XX

[Vfor]

Interesting username for our newcomer. Someone with lots of time on their hands, hoping to keep others busy responding.

Vfor... Vendetta?

Hope you and Stephen have a safe and healthy festive season, away from the nonsense.

Actually no, I had no intentions of hoping to keep others busy responding, and people aren't forced to respond, though its only reasonable that some should have responded. (I am happy with the responses and don't require anymore unless anyone can add any other proofs or disproofs.) Its all ones viewpoint, if you consider other suspects more quality and this one less then of course you will see it as being kept busy. Maybe they know who JTR was and they are keeping everyone busy with all the mystery? When I see any other thread/topics I can contribute something of value to I will, but there are alot I don't have enough info and ideas to comment on yet.
V for Vlad (my first name), v for victory. I also used it as my username in the archive site where I posted my Arthur's battles paper. I have no vendetta.
I don't appreciate being called nonsense without proof/evidence.
Hope I don't get banned for answering your post but it was unfair/untrue. The rules say we aren't supposed to make personal attacks.
I have since gone through all the other main/major JTR suspects and I couldn't see any as very likely from the summaries of the evidences.
I'm happy to leave this MJK thread/topic here unless there is anything else anyone wants to say about the possible evidences.

[celee]

Was Martha Tabram killed inside?

[celee]

[QUOTE=Vfor;n748257]Thanks for clearing that point up. I accept that that


MJK stands out from most of the 5/6/7/11 murders because:
- It was "the most savage", with the mutilation of all identifying features of the body.
- Unlike the other victims her clothes were removed.
- It was the only one of the 5 canonical done inside
- It was a longer time duration (2 hours)
- It is the last of the 5 canonical JTR murders
- "The great hush after MJK."

I believe the Kelly murder was the most savage and took the longest because the Ripper was not in a hurry. He had no fear of somebody stumbling upon him or her. I think Kelly removed her own clothes and folded them. I know it has been suggested that the Ripper broke in while Kelly was sleeping but I feel it is more likely she brought her killer back to her home. The significance of the Kelly murder is that she was the last victim.

The Detectives that worked the case obviously knew more than we do about the killings and they all seem to have different suspects. I think the murderer was one of the suspects put forward by the police officials. Kosminski, Seweryn Kłosowski, Montague John Druitt. Francis Tumblety, and Michael Ostrog. I know there are good arguments against the men as suspects and great arguments for other suspects. I also understand that it is fun to discuss possible suspects I enjoy reading the discussions. but I believe one of the above suspects was the killer.

So, the big question that needs to be answered is why was the Kelly murder the last one? Obviously, something happened to Jack. Maybe he died. Druitt committed suicide shortly after the Kelly murder. Some researchers have suggested that the extreme savageness of the Kelly murder was too much for the killer to deal with and he killed himself rather than continue. Maybe Jack moved out of the area and his next victims were never connected to the ripper murders. Tumblety and Klosowski both moved to America. Maybe the Ripper was locked up for an unconnected crime or mental health reasons. Kosminski was said to be locked away in an asylum. I do not feel Ostrog is much of a suspect but he was constantly arrested.

I think you are on the right track understanding the Kelly murder is most important.

[Vfor]

Was Martha Tabram killed inside?

Yes she was also killed inside, but she isn't one of the canonical murders.

Thanks for clearing that point up. I accept that that

MJK stands out from most of the 5/6/7/11 murders because:
- It was "the most savage", with the mutilation of all identifying features of the body.
- Unlike the other victims her clothes were removed.
- It was the only one of the 5 canonical done inside
- It was a longer time duration (2 hours)
- It is the last of the 5 canonical JTR murders
- "The great hush after MJK."

I believe the Kelly murder was the most savage and took the longest because the Ripper was not in a hurry. He had no fear of somebody stumbling upon him or her. I think Kelly removed her own clothes and folded them. I know it has been suggested that the Ripper broke in while Kelly was sleeping but I feel it is more likely she brought her killer back to her home. The significance of the Kelly murder is that she was the last victim.

The Detectives that worked the case obviously knew more than we do about the killings and they all seem to have different suspects. I think the murderer was one of the suspects put forward by the police officials. Kosminski, Seweryn Kłosowski, Montague John Druitt. Francis Tumblety, and Michael Ostrog. I know there are good arguments against the men as suspects and great arguments for other suspects. I also understand that it is fun to discuss possible suspects I enjoy reading the discussions. but I believe one of the above suspects was the killer.

So, the big question that needs to be answered is why was the Kelly murder the last one? Obviously, something happened to Jack. Maybe he died. Druitt committed suicide shortly after the Kelly murder. Some researchers have suggested that the extreme savageness of the Kelly murder was too much for the killer to deal with and he killed himself rather than continue. Maybe Jack moved out of the area and his next victims were never connected to the ripper murders. Tumblety and Klosowski both moved to America. Maybe the Ripper was locked up for an unconnected crime or mental health reasons. Kosminski was said to be locked away in an asylum. I do not feel Ostrog is much of a suspect but he was constantly arrested.

I think you are on the right track understanding the Kelly murder is most important.

Thanks for your good thoughts. MJK is the last canonical JTR victim, but its not sure she was the last as there were some other murders afterwards that are also considered to possibly be JTR victims. I found out that there was also another letter possibly from JTR sometime after MJK (which might mean my theory was wrong). But MJK is the last canonical murder and might be the last one, and it does stand out the most for some reasons, and if so then the question is why. What you say is possible that there may be some other reason like something happened to the murderer or they died or shifted or were locke dup. Its certainly interesting that Druitt was found dead soon after MJK and before the police were scaled down and before police said JTR had drowned. I think I've seen one or two other suspects who were locked up in an asylum around the time the murders stopped too. (I'll have to re-research on this.) So yes that is possible. The James Carnac book claims that the murderer saw himself in MJK's mirror and that it had an effect on him, which might also be a reason why he stopped. (Though that is strange because the light was poor and he didn't stop mutilating etc for 2 hours or so.) Though some of the other things like the removal of all identifying features might also be important too.

[celee]

I put a lot of faith in the men who investigated the case and Robert Anderson claims that the ripper letters were a hoax and the name Jack the Ripper was a journalist ploy to sell papers. Also, most of the Detectives seemed to be of the opinion that Mary Kelly was the last victim. The Ripper case is addictive. I can tell you enjoy the investigation. I do too. I have some theories people might think is real lol.

[Vfor]

I can understand having faith in the investigators and experts, and they might well be right that they were a hoax, though it is not definitely proven. I tend to agree that MJK seemingly was probably the last. It will be interesting to see your theories in the threads/topics here. I'm abit of an autistic and tend to get abit engrossed in the various historical mysteries when I am investigating them. Re your suggestion that the something happened to the ripper after MJK's murder I've so far compiled this timeline:

MJK murdered 9 Nov 88
Edward Buchan suicides 19 Nov 88.
Tumblety goes to France & then America 24 Nov 88.
Druitt dies Dec 88.
Possible JTR suspect in New York Dec 88
Cohen put in an infirmary & then asylum Dec 88, dies Oct 89.
Dr Jon William Sanders dies Jan 89
Bury moves to Dundee Jan 89 & hanged in Apr 89
Gray in Tunis Jan 89.
Bury moves to Scotland Feb 89
Maybrick dies May 89
Gull dies Jan 90. Van Gough dies Jul 1890
Kosminski to infirmary & asylum Feb 91, dies in asylum 1919
Levy dies 91
Cutbush to imfirmary/hospital 91-03
Deeming to Australia 92
Prince Albert Victor dies Jan 92
JK Stephen dies Feb 92
Deeming dies 92
Cream dies Nov 92
Feigenbaum executed 96
Pizer dies 96/97
Carrol dies 98
Puckridge dies 1900
John Sanders dies 1901
Fogelma dies in asylum 1902
Netley killed 1903
Klosowski hanged 1903
Tumblety dies 1903
Cutbush dies 1903.

[Michael W Richards]

I put a lot of faith in the men who investigated the case and Robert Anderson claims that the ripper letters were a hoax and the name Jack the Ripper was a journalist ploy to sell papers. Also, most of the Detectives seemed to be of the opinion that Mary Kelly was the last victim. The Ripper case is addictive. I can tell you enjoy the investigation. I do too. I have some theories people might think is real lol.

Careful what credence you give to Anderson. Read his comments about the cases and see if they have any basis in known evidence,...like for example that it was "ascertained" that the killer was an immigrant Jew in September, and fellow Jews were reluctant to turn him him or id him. Sound credible?

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=celee;n748440]

Thanks for clearing that point up. I accept that that


MJK stands out from most of the 5/6/7/11 murders because:
- It was "the most savage", with the mutilation of all identifying features of the body.
- Unlike the other victims her clothes were removed.
- It was the only one of the 5 canonical done inside
- It was a longer time duration (2 hours)
- It is the last of the 5 canonical JTR murders
- "The great hush after MJK."

I believe the Kelly murder was the most savage and took the longest because the Ripper was not in a hurry. He had no fear of somebody stumbling upon him or her. I think Kelly removed her own clothes and folded them. I know it has been suggested that the Ripper broke in while Kelly was sleeping but I feel it is more likely she brought her killer back to her home. The significance of the Kelly murder is that she was the last victim.

The Detectives that worked the case obviously knew more than we do about the killings and they all seem to have different suspects. I think the murderer was one of the suspects put forward by the police officials. Kosminski, Seweryn Kłosowski, Montague John Druitt. Francis Tumblety, and Michael Ostrog. I know there are good arguments against the men as suspects and great arguments for other suspects. I also understand that it is fun to discuss possible suspects I enjoy reading the discussions. but I believe one of the above suspects was the killer.

So, the big question that needs to be answered is why was the Kelly murder the last one? Obviously, something happened to Jack. Maybe he died. Druitt committed suicide shortly after the Kelly murder. Some researchers have suggested that the extreme savageness of the Kelly murder was too much for the killer to deal with and he killed himself rather than continue. Maybe Jack moved out of the area and his next victims were never connected to the ripper murders. Tumblety and Klosowski both moved to America. Maybe the Ripper was locked up for an unconnected crime or mental health reasons. Kosminski was said to be locked away in an asylum. I do not feel Ostrog is much of a suspect but he was constantly arrested.

I think you are on the right track understanding the Kelly murder is most important.

Ostrog was in prison in France at the time of the murders and so can be eliminated from the list Celee.

[Gordon]

Was Martha Tabram killed inside?

Yes, but that’s irrelevant really. Not because she wasn't one of the C5, but from a purely practical standpoint.

Generally the Ripper killed in either a public or a semi-private place. By “semi-private” I mean a privately owned place to which the public had easy access. It may be worth while ranking the murder sites from public to private, from “exposed” to “enclosed" if you like.

First comes Polly Nichols, the only victim killed on a public thoroughfare where people routinely passed by. The only safety factor was darkness and the lack of traffic between three and four in the morning. Still, there were occasional passers-by in Bucks Row even at that time, as we know. It could be that the killer took a bigger risk of being disturbed on this occasion than on others, but another consideration is the possibility of escape. If he heard someone coming, he did have two possible directions to run.

Next comes Kate Eddowes. Mitre Square was public, but most people passing through--hardly any at that time of night--would rarely have ventured into the dark corner where she was found. If it hadn’t been for Constable Watkins with his lantern making a point of looking into that corner, she might never have been found until daybreak.

Next comes Liz Stride. Technically Dutfield’s Yard was private property, and very dark in spots, but in practice a lot of people went in and out, especially to the club next door.

Possibly Annie Chapman should come next, killed outdoors but in a private yard supposed to be used only by the occupants of 29 Hanbury Street. And Martha Tabram was killed inside a building, but on a communal staircase shared by all the occupants of the flats there. But how much does it matter whether it was “inside” or "outside”? Both sites were used by trespassing down-and-outs, sleeping on the staircase of George Yard Buildings, or actually inside the Hanbury Street house, where occupants who found them would turf them out. No doubt prostitutes would take their clients to both places as well. It could be argued that the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, despite being “outdoors,” was a “more enclosed” place than the staircase of George Yard Buildings, since the only escape was through a narrow passageway where a killer might be easily tackled. Unless, that is, he could jump the fence into the next yard. Anyway in practical terms the site of Tabram’s murder was every bit as "average" and "typical" of a Ripper killing as any other. Just as all the other aspects of her murder were also "average" and "typical,” with the sole exception of the M.O.

Finally of course the site of Mary Kelly's murder was the most private and secure of all, so it does stand out in that respect. But I’m sure there were reasons for that.

[celee]

Thanks, Gordon. I can't remember who said it but one of the Police Official said, what makes it easy for the killer is his victims take him to where interruption is least likely. What is your opinion? Do you think the women took Jack to the location they were killed?