Mile End Vigilance Committee

[Monty]

Do you mean you will not based on what you know now, or that regardless of the evidence, you refuse to accept that Aarons would be part of a hoax?

Keep in mind I'm not at all suggesting that Aarons was in any way shape and form part of the Ripper murders. And I'm not suggesting that Lusk knew (at that time) it was a hoax. He was clearly the dupe.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Based on what I know now Tom.

Monty

[Adam Went]

Maria:

What a shame you haven't seen the Michael Caine film.....you should be able to get both parts on DVD pretty easily, definitely worth checking out. I rate it higher than From Hell....

Tom:

The kidney and note was addressed and named to George Lusk - no mention of the MEVC in there at all. So while what you're saying is true, it's only through Lusk that we know so much about the MEVC, not the MEVC receiving the letter as a whole entity.

Perhaps it's plausible that Lusk and his men were targeted because they got a little too close to the killer for comfort. Maybe some of their group knew more than they let on to the police because they wanted to catch the killer themselves - a lot of them, being from their district, would have known and/or had ties with the underground, the criminals and the paupers, if they were not part of it themselves.

The point was though that the MEVC were in it for the money, which is the sentiment that I was somewhat disagreeing with.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Hello Mr. George,
By the by, there are descendants of Matthew Packer, and I'm sure they wouldn't like what's being said about their ancestor, even if there's tons of evidence to support it.
We've already stated that we arent's suspecting George Lusk or any other of the WVC members, who clearly were well intentioned people, pursuing a very civic idea.
Sweeney Todd would fit more with Klosowski/Chapman.
Thénardiers from Les Misérables? This cracked me up, and I honestly wouldn't say that Joseph Aarons was exceedingly greedy vs. trying to survive, and at least there's no evidence that he was robbing his customers like Thénardiers, but the fact that Aarons didn't appear to have any second thoughts in appointing a known, ex jailee criminal and pimp as co-leader of his WVC endeavour speaks volumes. And if Aarons was a dupe, like Lusk, then why all this intense advertizing to the press post-kidney? Lusk certainly didn't join in on any of this, despite him being the recipient of the parcel.

What interests me personally is the relations/conflicts between the WVC and the IWEC. This is a subject for another thread, but my personal suspicion is that Pipeman's description fitting Le Grand in Schwartz' testimony might have been a result of William Wess having intended a warning against Le Grand's activities on Berner Street. (As it happens, I've found some evidence in French spy reports about a Hungarian Schwartz orator involved with the IWEC, and I'm still researching this hint.)

I'll be really glad to subscribe to Ripperologist soon, after so many back issues acquired “on the sly“ by different authors, about which I feel very guilty, ;-) but it was a fascinating read.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Maria

Actually I would be very interested to know if there are any descendants of Joseph Aarons, George Lusk, or other members of the vigilance committee members and what they might think of the aspersions that are being cast. It would seem to me that you and Tom Wescott have got Mr. Aarons "stitched up a treat" as a kind of cross between the greedy tavernkeeper Thenardier of Les Miserables and Sweeney Todd, when he might not have been anything like that, let alone responsible for the reprehensible "From Hell" letter and half a kidney.

Thanks for your kind words about Ripperologist. We will look forward to welcoming you as a subscriber, Maria!

Chris

[mariab]

Hi Maria
I thought it was more Tom who was describing the committee as a financial venture and that you, myself, and others were saying it was a genuine effort to try to stop the crimes. I don't see much significance in the fact that the committee first met at the pub. They had to meet somewhere, didn't they? Also Aarons was accepted as treasurer of the organization, whether he appointed himself or not.

Hello Mr George.
Although it is entirely Tom's idea and I'm giving credit to him at 100% for figuring it out, as it happens I'm the one in this thread who first hinted to the idea that the VWC was also a financial venture, in my posts #9 and #17, so I'm really contemplating this possibility.
As for Joseph Aarons, it's not uncommon for a publican to become a treasurer in an organisation, but the fact that Aarons hired a known pimp with a known criminal past (Le Grand had been in jail from from 1877 to 1884) as a co-leader in the WVC doesn't look too good for Aarons. Aarons could have been a dupe (as Lusk appears to have been), but then again, Aarons, not Lusk, was the one in a haste to run to the newspapers and to overeagerly advertize the Lusk kidney incident and the WVC after the fact.
I'm not suggesting that Aarons was collaborating with Le Grand in any other schemes (unless evidence for this is found at some point), especially NOT in anything pertaining to Berner Street, where we have plenty of evidence that Le Grand was very active in trying to obstruct the investigation.
I'm very interested in researching Joseph Aarons a bit further. It might be a Polyanna idea, but I've often thought of looking up some bank records (which I've done a couple times in another field, with very successful results), not just for Joseph Aarons, but for other people as well. There's a possibility that I might be in London for a few days in early October, and I was thinking of trying it – particularly if Rob Clack accepted to help me with this endeavour.

PS.: By the by, might I thank you again for the Rip 117 issue, Mr. George, and I'll most certainly come back to you for a full subscription in about a week or so, when things get a bit quieter here.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris. I've shared a bit more with Maria than I have on this thread, and like I said, it's hard to resist the conclusion that Aarons and Le Grand were behind it.

Just for the record, the vigilance committe WAS legit. I'm not saying it was a criminal enterprise. I'm just saying that when the money didn't come in like they thought, Aarons looked for a way to boost their public exposure and appeal.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

Only Aarons was not an officer, but a publican self-proclaimed officer and treasurer of the organisation, having hired a known pimp and criminal as his co-leader in the WVC.
It's like I said yesterday, the WVC was a very civic idea, but it was created as a financial venture, in a pub. And, as criminals were involved (Le Grand and his sidekicks), it degenerated into deception. . . .

Hi Maria

I thought it was more Tom who was describing the committee as a financial venture and that you, myself, and others were saying it was a genuine effort to try to stop the crimes. I don't see much significance in the fact that the committee first met at the pub. They had to meet somewhere, didn't they? Also Aarons was accepted as treasurer of the organization, whether he appointed himself or not.

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

Where I will not go as far as Tom

Do you mean you will not based on what you know now, or that regardless of the evidence, you refuse to accept that Aarons would be part of a hoax?

Keep in mind I'm not at all suggesting that Aarons was in any way shape and form part of the Ripper murders. And I'm not suggesting that Lusk knew (at that time) it was a hoax. He was clearly the dupe.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I actually think it might be an outrageous idea to suggest that Aarons was behind the Lusk postcard, letter and kidney. Just think about it: he was an officer of an organization that had been formed to stop the Ripper outrages.

Only Aarons was not an officer, but a publican self-proclaimed officer and treasurer of the organisation, having hired a known pimp and criminal as his co-leader in the WVC.
It's like I said yesterday, the WVC was a very civic idea, but it was created as a financial venture, in a pub. And, as criminals were involved (Le Grand and his sidekicks), it degenerated into deception.

A hoaxer who worked to obtain a human kidney would surely get more milleage from it by mailing it to the press, Scotland Yard. But to Lusk? It doesn't make sense until you ask yourself WHO gained from the kidney. The only answer is the WVC.

THIS and the suspicious behaviour of Aarons/Le Grand after the kidney was received is what made me attentive to the realities here.

I also think its no coincidence that the Star newspaper drove the request for the formation of committees.

Was there something specific going on with The Star which I might not know? I would appreciate any information.

[Monty]

All,

I think Tom makes a really valid point with regards the Lusk letter. It certainly put that committee in the spotlight.

I also think its no coincidence that the Star newspaper drove the request for the formation of committees.

Where I will not go as far as Tom, I will accept he has a fundemental point.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris and Adam. I completely understand your points of view. After all, I've read the same books you have and am used to the WVC being presented as beleagured heroes. But let's take a step back and put things in their proper perspective. The ONLY reason we know the WVC so well and the ONLY reason they occupy such an important position in Ripperology is because they received that kidney. Because of this, their importance in the case has been magnified significantly. In the old days, it was often asked why the Ripper or a hoaxer would send a kidney to Lusk. The group was not particularly respected or known and was certainly no threat to the Ripper. A hoaxer who worked to obtain a human kidney would surely get more milleage from it by mailing it to the press, Scotland Yard, or to a specific investigator. But to Lusk? It doesn't make sense until you ask yourself WHO gained from the kidney. The only answer is the WVC.

And what do you really know about Joseph Aarons? He owned and operated a pub in the slums. It was he who started the vigilance committee, chaired the first meeting, saw Lusk elected president, and himself treasurer, in charge of the money. It was he who played the press to elicit donations from the public, and it was he who lied to the press about the kidney undoubtedly coming from Eddowes. It was he who hired one of the most dastardly criminals in existence at the time who would later become a suspect for the murders themselves. THIS is what we know for certain about Joseph Aarons. If I were to lay out the evidence from the month of October, 1888, any rational mind would find it quite easy to believe that Aarons and Le Grand perpetrated the kidney hoax, and the motive would be quite obvious. This is no Phil Carter Fenian fantasy, this is real evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

Didn't Aarons end up as landlord for another pub later on? Is there basis for the Lusk postcard, letter and kidney being a hoax and if so being perpetrated by Aarons? I would thnik that being somewhat prominant in the area as a landlord of a pub that he would keep a low profile especially as the Jewish community was worried about anti-Semitic riots and such. And Monty, I WILL be picking your brain and may send you the rough of the chapter on Lusk if that is alright.

Thank you, Maria, Adam, and Justin.

I actually think it might be an outrageous idea to suggest that Aarons was behind the Lusk postcard, letter and kidney. Just think about it: he was an officer of an organization that had been formed to stop the Ripper outrages. So do you really think that he would send such things to his friend and colleague who is the head of the organization? It's one thing to say a journalist might have sent Dear Boss or have hyped up the stories about Leather Apron... the newsmen were after all selling newspapers that carried the stories about the Ripper crimes, so it was good for their business. But the Vigilance Committee was trying to do the opposite, put an end to the Ripper and his crimes.

All the best

Chris

[mariab]

Adam,
as it happens, I haven't yet managed to see the JTR mini-series with Michael Caine, despite it being famous (even my mom has seen it!).
As for Lusk, it appears to me that he was the innocent in the equation. Joseph Aarons as a publican would have been aware of Le Grand's pimp activity. Obviously all of this requires more research, esp. details pertaining to Joseph Aarons.

[Adam Went]

Chris:

Well said.

Maria:

I think you would be surprised at just how many people derive their beliefs on the JTR case from movies and fiction books. Don't get me wrong, the Michael Caine film is easily my favourite on the JTR case, but under no circumstances should it be used for factual accuracy, be it Lusk and the MEVC or anything else - no movie should be.

Tom:

Well everybody is in to make a quid where they can, that's hardly limited to the efforts of Lusk and his group in 1888. Their primary focus was to apprehend the killer. Remember, they weren't just thinking for themselves - most of them would have had wives, daughters, mothers, sisters, etc etc who were all at risk and in fear of death by the hand of Jack - that, I believe, would have been their major motivation. I can't imagine Lusk sitting down at their first meeting and saying "Right gentlemen, how can we make some money out of this?". A slightly cynical view, IMO.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

And I'm struggling to acquire a modicum of motivation to do some work. I feel sooo lazy lately, I spent most of the weekend asleep. (I even cancelled going out.)