Mile End Vigilance Committee

[YankeeSergeant]

Book

The “box of toys“ postcard has not survived. There is circumstantial evidence which allows to suspect that Aarons and the criminally inclined Le Grand could have orchestrated the Lusk letter/kidney as a hoax, although Joseph Aarons needs more researching. What's suspicious is also that they immediately run to The Evening News with the kidney, instead of the police. Incidentally, The Evening News was the newspaper where Le Grand had planted his stories about Packer's (false) testimony, the grapestalk supposedly collected by Le Grand after Stride's murder, and the Batty Street Lodger. (Actually the Batty Street Lodger was first mentioned in The Northern Eastern Gazette, but also in The Evening News.)


Might I inquire what kind of chapter? Are you writing a book?
At least it's cool that Monty can be reached per PM.

Maria, I'm currently working on a rough draft of a novel about Jack the Ripper. The chapter in question deals with the Mile End Vigilance Committee and the From Hell letter to George Lusk. My working title is "Dusty Bluebells after the old children's counting game song.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hey TJ. I hear what you're saying. I guess since Le Grand was employed by the WVC, discussion of him would be on topic. And yes, I do love teasing Adam Went, but that's because I genuinely like him. Years ago he used to be mercilessly abused by Ally, but he took it like a man and didn't scamper off weeping like a wuss as so many do. How can you not respect that?

As for Levy, I"m sure I used to know more about him than I can recall at the moment, which is next to nothing. So I really do need to go read that thread. However, I would still take umbrage with Adam's bold statement that he's the best suspect in the last 10 years considering Le Grand was a legitimate police suspect who demonstratably paid witnesses to lie and constructed phantom suspects and myths that linger to this day. Not to mention his history of abusing prostitutes, etc. No suspect...ever...has these kind of credentials. But I understand that some people are predisposed to disregard Le Grand for reasons such as his height, in spite of the fact that more contemporary suspects were tall than were short (Druitt, Tumblety, D'Onston, Ostrog, Le Grand, Grant). Perhaps I'm predisposed to consider little Jewish guys as less likely, although I do try to remain open-minded. I'm still quite intrigued by Kosminski, as well as everything Chris Phillips and Scott Nelson put out on our mischevous Butcher's Row friend.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Tom

We have more 'suspicions' than the three what Maria has quoted. There is quite of research done on Jacob, he has his own thread here and on Jtr forums if you are truly interested. Feel free to either ask any questions on there or e-mail me, do you still have my e-mail address?

We would in fact appreciate your opinion.

I am not trying to fob you off but I think that this is way off the topic that was started.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

Sure, when you e-mail me, I'll e-mail you more about it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

there is a letter written to a newspaper, clearly from Lusk, who because of libel laws had to also be very careful about his word choice; but if you read between the lines of what he's saying, and consider that when he personally knew Le Grand it was in connection with the Ripper, it does not require much imagination to conclude he thought Le Grand was the Ripper, which such comments as Le Grand "preyed on miserable women", etc. But it certainly falls short of "proof".

Fascinating. Might I ask you for more details? I'm about to email you about Berner Street. Unfortunately I was unable to research Schwartz and the anarchists at the Archives Nationales today (due to complications with musicology), but I hope to be able to research this at the AN tomorrow afternoon.

[Tom_Wescott]

Jacob is a good fit for a suspect in my books

Hi Teej. Based on what, precisely? I'm genuinely curious.

As was Le Grand, for whom we have (as of yet) second hand evidence that he might have committed at least 2 murders (Stride and the one he boasted cryptically about).

Unfortunately, there's no empirical proof. But the evidence against Le Grand is certainly much stronger than that against Chapman. That's a matter of fact, not opinion.

Could you please tell us where the Lusk quote is from, Tom? Also, do you have any evidence that Lusk ended up suspecting Le Grand for the Ripper vs. simply being scared of Le Grand?

You'll note I said "I believe" Lusk suspected Le Grand for the Ripper murders. If I had a signed letter from Lusk stating "Le Grand was the Ripper" I wouldn't be so careful in my words. That's why I say "evidence" and not "proof", which are two very different things. However, there is a letter written to a newspaper, clearly from Lusk, who because of libel laws had to also be very careful about his word choice; but if you read between the lines of what he's saying, and consider that when he personally knew Le Grand it was in connection with the Ripper, it does not require much imagination to conclude he thought Le Grand was the Ripper, which such comments as Le Grand "preyed on miserable women", etc. But it certainly falls short of "proof".

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

NOT after it was revealed that the sexual assault occurred by another Levy, who was senile at the time. The only “suspicious“ items we have about Jacob Levy is that he was a butcher (like so many in Whitechapel) and the possibility that the Jewish witness who decided not to come forward in accusing another Jew was Joseph Hyam Levy instead of (most probably) Lawende or (most improbably) Schwartz. We don't even have evidence that Jacob Levy ever got incarcerated in an asylum.

He was sent to Stone Asylum in August 1890, the had already been in Essex Asylum in 1886.

Tj

[mariab]

I don't favor George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as having been Jack the Ripper, but one thing that is undeniable is that he was a genuine card-carrying East End murderer and in the area at the time of the crimes.

As was Le Grand, for whom we have (as of yet) second hand evidence that he might have committed at least 2 murders (Stride and the one he boasted cryptically about).
I'd still keep Klosowski in, as last in my (very short) list of suspects, the problems with a changing MO nonwithstanding, IF one were to accept that he would have changed his MO, Zodiac-like. And it would have been a much more substantial MO adjustment than Zodiac's. Also, it appears that after the latest research his assumed American crimes don't add up. Or not?

As we have discussed before, genealogical research is a minefield because of repeating names. It's very easy to latch on to an individual because of a similar name and think that you have the right person. This is particularly the case with Jewish names because they are so common.

Absolutely. And it's inexcusable to see a name and to uncritically assume it's the same person, without cross-referencing with other details such as age, physical description, newspaper reports.

What did Lusk think of Le Grand? "A very mean and squalid creature [with a] pristine reputation for almost devilish astuteness." I believe Lusk came to believe Le Grand was the Ripper and is at least partially the reason why many in Scotland Yard came to think the same.

Could you please tell us where the Lusk quote is from, Tom? Also, do you have any evidence that Lusk ended up suspecting Le Grand for the Ripper vs. simply being scared of Le Grand?

Huh??!! I gotta agree with Adam on this one, Tom. Jacob is a good fit for a suspect in my books.

NOT after it was revealed that the sexual assault occurred by another Levy, who was senile at the time. The only “suspicious“ items we have about Jacob Levy is that he was a butcher (like so many in Whitechapel) and the possibility that the Jewish witness who decided not to come forward in accusing another Jew was Joseph Hyam Levy instead of (most probably) Lawende or (most improbably) Schwartz. We don't even have evidence that Jacob Levy ever got incarcerated in an asylum.

[tji]

I]What makes you think I haven't? I'll show you how to fish, but you have to feed yourself. Jacob Levy the best suspect to come along in the last 10 years? Oh, you poor misguided child. [/I]

Huh??!! I gotta agree with Adam on this one, Tom. Jacob is a good fit for a suspect in my books....although half the time I thinkhalf the things you say is just to piss Adam off anyway.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't favor George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as having been Jack the Ripper, but one thing that is undeniable is that he was a genuine card-carrying East End murderer and in the area at the time of the crimes, which is much more than can be said about most names that are dropped in the hat as suggestions for having been the Whitechapel murderer.

There's certainly no denying that. Unfortunately, it seems one must have been caught and convicted of a murder before Adam and many others will accept them as a murderer. Le Grand almost certainly was a murderer. He claimed to have committed murder and was believed by his associates to have been a murderer. Unfortunately for my purposes, he was good at getting away with it.

What did Lusk think of Le Grand? "A very mean and squalid creature [with a] pristine reputation for almost devilish astuteness." I believe Lusk came to believe Le Grand was the Ripper and is at least partially the reason why many in Scotland Yard came to think the same.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Chris

My research folders can definitely attest to that!!!

I think I was lucky when I first researched my own family tree, with a last name like I'anson there isn't many people to get confused with.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

c'mon Tom, what is it? Why not post it right here for all to see?

What makes you think I haven't? I'll show you how to fish, but you have to feed yourself. Jacob Levy the best suspect to come along in the last 10 years? Oh, you poor misguided child.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

Maria:

It would be interesting if it could be found out just how much better off the average member of the MEVC was financially in, say, November 1888, compared to July 1888. I'd suggest there wouldn't be much difference at all, unless of course they had come upon money outside of their work with the committee.

And yes, I have favoured Klosowski from the very beginning. I'm not an ardent Klosowski-ite, but to borrow the phrase from Phil Sugden's chapter on him, he is the "least unlikely" of the current field of suspects. Jacob Levy is the best revelation in terms of plausible new suspects in the last decade.

Hi Adam et al.

I don't favor George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as having been Jack the Ripper, but one thing that is undeniable is that he was a genuine card-carrying East End murderer and in the area at the time of the crimes, which is much more than can be said about most names that are dropped in the hat as suggestions for having been the Whitechapel murderer.

As for Jacob Levy, recently I found out that the sexual assault charge on a 12 year old did not even refer to him, but to another Levy, and old ex soldier having served in India and missing a leg and an arm. (Major weirdness here.)

Um Maria, I believe it was Debs who actually found the article on Jacob Levy being a different Jacob to the one mentioned in the Old Bailey in 1874.

Also no real weirdness as such, Jacob Levy seemed to be was quite a popoular name at the time.

Tracy

Hi Tracy and Maria

As we have discussed before, genealogical research is a minefield because of repeating names. It's very easy to latch on to an individual because of a similar name and think that you have the right person. This is particularly the case with Jewish names because names such as Levy and Hyam (or Hyams) are so common.

All the best

chris

[mariab]

Of course it was Debs. I said “I found out“, not “I found“.

PS.: Weirdness referred obviously to the one arm/one leg old man sexually assaulting a 12 year old.

[tji]

As for Jacob Levy, recently I found out that the sexual assault charge on a 12 year old did not even refer to him, but to another Levy, and old ex soldier having served in India and missing a leg and an arm. (Major weirdness here.)

Um Maria, I believe it was Debs who actually found the article on Jacob Levy being a different Jacob to the one mentioned in the Old Bailey in 1874.

Also no real weirdness as such, Jacob Levy seemed to be was quite a popoular name at the time.

Tracy