Mile End Vigilance Committee

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't favor George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as having been Jack the Ripper, but one thing that is undeniable is that he was a genuine card-carrying East End murderer and in the area at the time of the crimes, which is much more than can be said about most names that are dropped in the hat as suggestions for having been the Whitechapel murderer.

There's certainly no denying that. Unfortunately, it seems one must have been caught and convicted of a murder before Adam and many others will accept them as a murderer. Le Grand almost certainly was a murderer. He claimed to have committed murder and was believed by his associates to have been a murderer. Unfortunately for my purposes, he was good at getting away with it.

What did Lusk think of Le Grand? "A very mean and squalid creature [with a] pristine reputation for almost devilish astuteness." I believe Lusk came to believe Le Grand was the Ripper and is at least partially the reason why many in Scotland Yard came to think the same.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

I]What makes you think I haven't? I'll show you how to fish, but you have to feed yourself. Jacob Levy the best suspect to come along in the last 10 years? Oh, you poor misguided child. [/I]

Huh??!! I gotta agree with Adam on this one, Tom. Jacob is a good fit for a suspect in my books....although half the time I thinkhalf the things you say is just to piss Adam off anyway.

Tj

[mariab]

I don't favor George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as having been Jack the Ripper, but one thing that is undeniable is that he was a genuine card-carrying East End murderer and in the area at the time of the crimes.

As was Le Grand, for whom we have (as of yet) second hand evidence that he might have committed at least 2 murders (Stride and the one he boasted cryptically about).
I'd still keep Klosowski in, as last in my (very short) list of suspects, the problems with a changing MO nonwithstanding, IF one were to accept that he would have changed his MO, Zodiac-like. And it would have been a much more substantial MO adjustment than Zodiac's. Also, it appears that after the latest research his assumed American crimes don't add up. Or not?

As we have discussed before, genealogical research is a minefield because of repeating names. It's very easy to latch on to an individual because of a similar name and think that you have the right person. This is particularly the case with Jewish names because they are so common.

Absolutely. And it's inexcusable to see a name and to uncritically assume it's the same person, without cross-referencing with other details such as age, physical description, newspaper reports.

What did Lusk think of Le Grand? "A very mean and squalid creature [with a] pristine reputation for almost devilish astuteness." I believe Lusk came to believe Le Grand was the Ripper and is at least partially the reason why many in Scotland Yard came to think the same.

Could you please tell us where the Lusk quote is from, Tom? Also, do you have any evidence that Lusk ended up suspecting Le Grand for the Ripper vs. simply being scared of Le Grand?

Huh??!! I gotta agree with Adam on this one, Tom. Jacob is a good fit for a suspect in my books.

NOT after it was revealed that the sexual assault occurred by another Levy, who was senile at the time. The only “suspicious“ items we have about Jacob Levy is that he was a butcher (like so many in Whitechapel) and the possibility that the Jewish witness who decided not to come forward in accusing another Jew was Joseph Hyam Levy instead of (most probably) Lawende or (most improbably) Schwartz. We don't even have evidence that Jacob Levy ever got incarcerated in an asylum.

[tji]

NOT after it was revealed that the sexual assault occurred by another Levy, who was senile at the time. The only “suspicious“ items we have about Jacob Levy is that he was a butcher (like so many in Whitechapel) and the possibility that the Jewish witness who decided not to come forward in accusing another Jew was Joseph Hyam Levy instead of (most probably) Lawende or (most improbably) Schwartz. We don't even have evidence that Jacob Levy ever got incarcerated in an asylum.

He was sent to Stone Asylum in August 1890, the had already been in Essex Asylum in 1886.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

Jacob is a good fit for a suspect in my books

Hi Teej. Based on what, precisely? I'm genuinely curious.

As was Le Grand, for whom we have (as of yet) second hand evidence that he might have committed at least 2 murders (Stride and the one he boasted cryptically about).

Unfortunately, there's no empirical proof. But the evidence against Le Grand is certainly much stronger than that against Chapman. That's a matter of fact, not opinion.

Could you please tell us where the Lusk quote is from, Tom? Also, do you have any evidence that Lusk ended up suspecting Le Grand for the Ripper vs. simply being scared of Le Grand?

You'll note I said "I believe" Lusk suspected Le Grand for the Ripper murders. If I had a signed letter from Lusk stating "Le Grand was the Ripper" I wouldn't be so careful in my words. That's why I say "evidence" and not "proof", which are two very different things. However, there is a letter written to a newspaper, clearly from Lusk, who because of libel laws had to also be very careful about his word choice; but if you read between the lines of what he's saying, and consider that when he personally knew Le Grand it was in connection with the Ripper, it does not require much imagination to conclude he thought Le Grand was the Ripper, which such comments as Le Grand "preyed on miserable women", etc. But it certainly falls short of "proof".

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

there is a letter written to a newspaper, clearly from Lusk, who because of libel laws had to also be very careful about his word choice; but if you read between the lines of what he's saying, and consider that when he personally knew Le Grand it was in connection with the Ripper, it does not require much imagination to conclude he thought Le Grand was the Ripper, which such comments as Le Grand "preyed on miserable women", etc. But it certainly falls short of "proof".

Fascinating. Might I ask you for more details? I'm about to email you about Berner Street. Unfortunately I was unable to research Schwartz and the anarchists at the Archives Nationales today (due to complications with musicology), but I hope to be able to research this at the AN tomorrow afternoon.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sure, when you e-mail me, I'll e-mail you more about it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Tom

We have more 'suspicions' than the three what Maria has quoted. There is quite of research done on Jacob, he has his own thread here and on Jtr forums if you are truly interested. Feel free to either ask any questions on there or e-mail me, do you still have my e-mail address?

We would in fact appreciate your opinion.

I am not trying to fob you off but I think that this is way off the topic that was started.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

Hey TJ. I hear what you're saying. I guess since Le Grand was employed by the WVC, discussion of him would be on topic. And yes, I do love teasing Adam Went, but that's because I genuinely like him. Years ago he used to be mercilessly abused by Ally, but he took it like a man and didn't scamper off weeping like a wuss as so many do. How can you not respect that?

As for Levy, I"m sure I used to know more about him than I can recall at the moment, which is next to nothing. So I really do need to go read that thread. However, I would still take umbrage with Adam's bold statement that he's the best suspect in the last 10 years considering Le Grand was a legitimate police suspect who demonstratably paid witnesses to lie and constructed phantom suspects and myths that linger to this day. Not to mention his history of abusing prostitutes, etc. No suspect...ever...has these kind of credentials. But I understand that some people are predisposed to disregard Le Grand for reasons such as his height, in spite of the fact that more contemporary suspects were tall than were short (Druitt, Tumblety, D'Onston, Ostrog, Le Grand, Grant). Perhaps I'm predisposed to consider little Jewish guys as less likely, although I do try to remain open-minded. I'm still quite intrigued by Kosminski, as well as everything Chris Phillips and Scott Nelson put out on our mischevous Butcher's Row friend.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[YankeeSergeant]

Book

The “box of toys“ postcard has not survived. There is circumstantial evidence which allows to suspect that Aarons and the criminally inclined Le Grand could have orchestrated the Lusk letter/kidney as a hoax, although Joseph Aarons needs more researching. What's suspicious is also that they immediately run to The Evening News with the kidney, instead of the police. Incidentally, The Evening News was the newspaper where Le Grand had planted his stories about Packer's (false) testimony, the grapestalk supposedly collected by Le Grand after Stride's murder, and the Batty Street Lodger. (Actually the Batty Street Lodger was first mentioned in The Northern Eastern Gazette, but also in The Evening News.)


Might I inquire what kind of chapter? Are you writing a book?
At least it's cool that Monty can be reached per PM.

Maria, I'm currently working on a rough draft of a novel about Jack the Ripper. The chapter in question deals with the Mile End Vigilance Committee and the From Hell letter to George Lusk. My working title is "Dusty Bluebells after the old children's counting game song.

[Tom_Wescott]

(Actually the Batty Street Lodger was first mentioned in The Northern Eastern Gazette, but also in The Evening News.)

I just caught this when Yank quoted it. Maria's source is Gavin Bromley's excellent essay 'Mrs. Kuer's Lodger'. In attempt to correct me she is herself mistaken. Had she read my Le Grand essay she'd know that the earliest known newspaper reference regarding the Batty Street lodger has Charles Le Grand (along with Batchelor) at the helm. It's from Oct. 9th.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

A novel as in a bit of “free“ novelization based on the facts, Yankee Seargant? The best of lucks with that. I'm afraid I haven't heard of Dusty Bluebells as an old children's counting game song. (Is this American or British?). I assume that bluebells are some kind of flower?

[mariab]

Maria's source is Gavin Bromley's excellent essay 'Mrs. Kuer's Lodger'. In attempt to correct me she is herself mistaken. Had she read my Le Grand essay she'd know that the earliest known newspaper reference regarding the Batty Street lodger has Charles Le Grand (along with Batchelor) at the helm. It's from Oct. 9th.

Tom, no idea who quoted me on this and how, but I've referred to this only in my post #19 (which you can check out). I was most certainly NOT correcting you, but referring to your Examiner 2 article and to Debra Arif's important find. I've recently acquired Gavin Bromley's much acclaimed article and I plan to read it very-very soon. I know he also discusses Schwartz as an addendum in his concluding part.

[YankeeSergeant]

music halls

To Adam:
I'd love to see the Michael Caine miniseries, but I wished I could just rent it. I have far too many DVDs (and VCRs) as it is. But I'm sure I'll see it someday, either online, or while visiting someone. (I know, I'm such a cheapskate.)


Lusk AKA the frontman of the WVC. Call it “capitalism“ or “human nature“, but sooner or later, most human ventures end up being also about money. Not all, but most. (Hey, Ripperology is most certainly an exception to this rule, which is good!)




Essentially Claire and Adam are saying the same thing, and I agree with them. The WVC might have started out innocently, but as soon as Le Grand got a free hand, things changed fast. As for Aarons, other that he was in it for the money and for his pub in a big way, I have (yet) no idea what his initial plans were. But after Lusk received the kidney, Aarons started behaving suspiciously, in tandem with Le Grand. (Though ONLY pertaining to the kidney, not as a collaborator in any other of Le Grand's endeavours.)


Dodgy music halls nonwithstanding, Lusk was a living saint compared to Le Grand. (At least he didn't beat any music hall dancers.) Again, Lusk's behaviour after the kidney incident was not suspicious. He seemed just genuinely worried for his safety.

He was a builder/decorator who specialized in Music halls seems to me he would have to frequent them occassionally to drum up business.

[YankeeSergeant]

Bluebells

A novel as in a bit of “free“ novelization based on the facts, Yankee Seargant? The best of lucks with that. I'm afraid I haven't heard of Dusty Bluebells as an old children's counting game song. (Is this American or British?). I assume that bluebells are some kind of flower?

Maria, my understanding is that it is British (though I will have to look through my references) and yes, bluebells are a type of flower. ANd basically I am mixing the facts and fictionalizing the story.