Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[Carol]

Hi everyone!
Here are some more 'Chathamese/Cockney' sayings:

'Carrying all before her' - when talking about a well-endowed woman.

'She's got a mouth on her' - someone who shouts a lot or is very nasty in their speech.

'He's got himself a nice bit of fluff' - a young man's pretty girlfriend.

'He'll cop it' - when speaking of a child misbehaving.

Love
Carol

[Archaic]

Thanks Phil.

I assumed that military bearing would mean traits that have always been common with the military, well at least in England i.e. all the characteristics wrapped up in being drilled: rigid, self-controlled, polite, humourless.

Sorry, but these are characteristics of a Mexican army.

David, I just pictured Santa Anna and remembered the Alamo.

Whoa, that was intense...

If I get that 'Davey Crockett' song stuck in my head now it's your fault.

A.

[Phil Carter]

The British term for ladies' undergarments, 'knickers' comes from Knickerbockers too.

Washington Irving, the author of 'Sleepy Hollow' popularized the word "Knickerbocker". The English edition of Irving's famous work 'A History of New-York From the Beginning of the World' was illustrated by George Cruikshank, and he put the character "Diedrich Knickerbocker" in short baggy pants, which became known as 'knickers'.

In the 1920's baggy knickerbocker pants known as 'plus-fours' were stylish golfing apparel for men. They were popularized by Edward, the Prince of Wales and later Duke of Windsor.

Not sure when the word morphed in England to mean "ladies' underwear". I'm guessing it was in the 20th C. There used to be a 1-piece garment called "cami-knickers"; I've seen Edwardian ones.

I like the humorous phrase my British friends use, "knickers in a twist."

>> So does "knickers" only mean "underwear" now in England, or does it also refer to the short pants?

-Oh, but then doesn't "pants" refer to "underwear" in England too?!? Now I'm really confused!


Archaic

Hello Archaic,

Yes, in the UK, "Knickers" generally refers to ladies underwear. "Pants", is generally referred to male underwear.

However, I have heard the term "pants" referred to by females about female underwear. I am yet to hear "knickers" referred to by males to male underwear.

Hope this helps.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

I assumed that military bearing would mean traits that have always been common with the military, well at least in England i.e. all the characteristics wrapped up in being drilled: rigid, self-controlled, polite, humourless.

Sorry, but these are characteristics of a Mexican army.

[Archaic]

Knickers

The British term for ladies' undergarments, 'knickers' comes from Knickerbockers too.

Washington Irving, the author of 'Sleepy Hollow' popularized the word "Knickerbocker". The English edition of Irving's famous work 'A History of New-York From the Beginning of the World' was illustrated by George Cruikshank, and he put the character "Diedrich Knickerbocker" in short baggy pants, which became known as 'knickers'.

In the 1920's baggy knickerbocker pants known as 'plus-fours' were stylish golfing apparel for men. They were popularized by Edward, the Prince of Wales and later Duke of Windsor.

Not sure when the word morphed in England to mean "ladies' underwear". I'm guessing it was in the 20th C. There used to be a 1-piece garment called "cami-knickers"; I've seen Edwardian ones.

I like the humorous phrase my British friends use, "knickers in a twist."

>> So does "knickers" only mean "underwear" now in England, or does it also refer to the short pants?

-Oh, but then doesn't "pants" refer to "underwear" in England too?!? Now I'm really confused!


Archaic

[Fleetwood Mac]

I assumed that military bearing would mean traits that have always been common with the military, well at least in England i.e. all the characteristics wrapped up in being drilled: rigid, self-controlled, polite, humourless.

[YankeeSergeant]

knickerbockers

[QUOTE=Carol;167943]

According to my bound volume of 'Home Chat' for 1896 bicycling was very much in the vogue in late Victorian times. Most of the illustrations show women wearing skirts when bicycling, but there are a few showing women wearing 'knickerbockers'. I can imagine the latter was the origin of the words 'split-tail', Magpie and Yankee Sergeant! Mrs Knickerbocker from USA was the originator of this garment for women, of course.

I just want to share something with you all - in my 'Home Chat' for February 22 1896 under 'Living Thoughts' is the following 'thought' which I think is lovely (haven't seen it until now whilst thinking of this thread).

'The glory of love is that it delights in doing for nothing even what nobody else will do for money'.

Love
Carol

Carol, I would assume that is where the term knickers comes from. Knickerbocker is an old Dutch term used to describe the descendents of the early Dutch settlers of eastern New York State (From New York City to the Albany area). The garment apparently is the heir to bloomers made popular in the 1850s by Amelia Bloomer. The New York Knicks take their team name from the Knickerbockers. Many of the place names in New York City come directly from the Dutch Brooklyn being a corruption of the Dutch for broken land, Spuytenduvyl meaning to spite the devil and the Bowery coming from Saint Mark's on the Bouwery. Thus concludes my New York State history Lesson, now back to our originally scheduled programming

[Carol]

[QUOTE=YankeeSergeant;167863]

I first heard that term in the Navy back eons ago it seems like.

According to my bound volume of 'Home Chat' for 1896 bicycling was very much in the vogue in late Victorian times. Most of the illustrations show women wearing skirts when bicycling, but there are a few showing women wearing 'knickerbockers'. I can imagine the latter was the origin of the words 'split-tail', Magpie and Yankee Sergeant! Mrs Knickerbocker from USA was the originator of this garment for women, of course.

I just want to share something with you all - in my 'Home Chat' for February 22 1896 under 'Living Thoughts' is the following 'thought' which I think is lovely (haven't seen it until now whilst thinking of this thread).

'The glory of love is that it delights in doing for nothing even what nobody else will do for money'.

Love
Carol

[Archaic]

"Sporting Girl" is a good one, Yankee!

You reminded me of the famous French phrase, "les Grandes Horizontales". The Great Horizontals were the famous courtesans.

Not sure if there were So-So Horizontals.

Cheers,
Archaic

[YankeeSergeant]

Soiled doves etc.

Great work everybody! (Hi Carol )



Hi Magpie. That's a good one- now that I have enough English friends to get the joke! For the sake of our British friends, over here "fanny" is a very polite euphemism for "derriere"; so mild it's used with young children & old ladies.

I remember hearing an English friend shriek into the phone when I innocently asked her what "m*inge" meant (rhymes with "singe"). I heard it on a British comedy/talk show and couldn't understand why all the other guests choked!

"Soiled Doves" was a popular term for prostitutes in the Wild West- that's what they were called in Tombstone, Arizona, home of Boot Hill Cemetery, the Bird-Cage Theater & the OK Corral. There's a good history book by the same name.

Another such term is "public women", which of course dates to the days when a respectable woman stayed home and shunned publicity.

The word "actress" implied loose morals & even prostitution well into the 20th C. The great Lillian Gish said that when she & Dorothy were girls their mother had to lie about their profession in order for the three of them to be able to stay at a half-way respectable hotel.

Got to get back to work, I'll peek in later.
Thanks everyone,
Archaic

Don't know how far back it goes but the term "Sporting Girl" was used for protitutes as well. In the American Civil War purchasing the services of a prostitute was sometimes referred to as "Riding a Dutch Gal" and the sex act itself was referred to as "Horizontal refreshment" Cheers!

[Archaic]

Great work everybody! (Hi Carol )

I remember when an English relative came over to visit us in the 80's when "fanny packs" first took off--he was scandalized at the signs in the various shops advertising fanny packs...

Hi Magpie. That's a good one- now that I have enough English friends to get the joke! For the sake of our British friends, over here "fanny" is a very polite euphemism for "derriere"; so mild it's used with young children & old ladies.

I remember hearing an English friend shriek into the phone when I innocently asked her what "m*inge" meant (rhymes with "singe"). I heard it on a British comedy/talk show and couldn't understand why all the other guests choked!

"Soiled Doves" was a popular term for prostitutes in the Wild West- that's what they were called in Tombstone, Arizona, home of Boot Hill Cemetery, the Bird-Cage Theater & the OK Corral. There's a good history book by the same name.

Another such term is "public women", which of course dates to the days when a respectable woman stayed home and shunned publicity.

The word "actress" implied loose morals & even prostitution well into the 20th C. The great Lillian Gish said that when she & Dorothy were girls their mother had to lie about their profession in order for the three of them to be able to stay at a half-way respectable hotel.

Got to get back to work, I'll peek in later.
Thanks everyone,
Archaic

[YankeeSergeant]

split tail

[QUOTE=Magpie;167811]

I've heard "split tail"--much in vogue with bikers.

I first heard that term in the Navy back eons ago it seems like.

[YankeeSergeant]

****-chafers

Hi,

There are a couple of websites I use all the time.

One is and etymology dictionary: www.etymonline.com (weird but right address). This is invaluable for tracing the origin of words and there are some real shockers in there I can tell you! Words I thought were quite recent are often medieval!

Another one I use is the criminal slang dictionary on www.victorianlondon.org.
There are some good ones in there, although it dates to a couple of decades earlier than Jack's time. Many of them are still around today, so I suspect that most of them would still be current in Jack's time.

One I did notice is that prostitutes were called 'bobtails' not 'bangtails' as rendered in the film From Hell (unless that name was used as well and the dictionary omitted it). I suppose the word 'bangtails' sounded better for the film, whereas 'bobtails' sounds far less earthy. They were also called ****-chafers. It's worth going through the flash dictionary on viclondon.com, there is some good stuff there. Oh, it's censored the word, but I've got to put it or it doesn't make sense - it's c o c k. I think it might not be referencing what we think it is. I suspect it's talking about **** bird. Lol

Why are the posts all going up in the wrong order on my machine?

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

Hi Janie, Unfortunates was used when talking about prostitutes as was the euphanism "Soiled doves" Cheers,

[YankeeSergeant]

Sloush hat?

'Swanky' is an old word used by victorians.Generally referred to the better off who dressed well,lived in nice houses,and exhibited a'Toffey nosed'atitude.

'Married well',or,'Made a good catch' refered generally to a poorer person who married 'Into money'.

'Gaffer'or'Guvenner' was the boss.'Brood' was the children of a family.(parents would refer to my brood)
'Sloush hat' was a flat peaked cap.

These are some of the expressions used by my parents and grandparents(victorians),and not used by my grandchildren.Some may have been just regional.

Not sure if this is a different speeling or an incorrect one. If you mean Slouch hat, a slouch hat is a wide brimmed felt hat with or without a hat band. If you saw the movie Zule, it was the type of hat the Afrikaans (Boer) cavalry wore that left Roarke's Drift prior to the battle.

[Carol]

Just thought of a few more:

'a bit of allright' - an attractive member of the opposite sex.

'chip off the old block' - a son or daughter being very like the mother or father.

'he/she's got more money than sense' - someone who spent money on 'daft' purchases.

I think '****' in '****-chafers' probably does refer to a man's 'best friend' (not his dog). After all, 'chafe' means 'rub'!

Toodlepip!
Carol