Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[The Grave Maurice]

You're welcome to ask about Victorian clothing and accessories too. I have a background in antique clothing, so I'll do my best to explain them and perhaps post photos or illustrations.

I happened upon this book today, Archaic. If you haven't got it already, it seems like a bargain.

http://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Edwardian-Fashion-Photographic-Survey/dp/0486242056/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299782437&sr=1-1

[ansonfish]

Certainly Black Maria (pronounced as in Mariah Carey) was used in Plymouth area in the 1970's. Cant say I've heard it since then and maybe the term has been consigned to history.
At the start of this thread it said prostitute was never used as an occupation in Victorian England. Not sure how unusual it is but there were two listed in the Castle Inn, Bishop's Stortford 1888.

[Carol]

I know that "Black Maria" was a term used in parts of Ontario as recently as the 1970s when the police transport vans were, in fact, black.

I can remember the black police transport vans being called Black Marias. Pronounced as Archaic says - Mariah. I can remember my first acquaintance with the name when I was very young. My mother looked out of our back door and said 'There's a Black Maria outside of Mrs So-and-so's'. I climbed up on a chair so I could also see but couldn't see anyone(!). Then Mum explained what a Black Maria was!

I can remember back in the 1950's a very loose fitting jumper (sweater) coming into fashion for young women. It was called a 'sloppy Joe'. If I remember correctly it was worn with very tight slacks (pants).

As we were getting older (early teens) we no longer wore 'knickers' outside of school hours. Instead we wore 'panties' (even though they might look the same!). We felt that the word 'knickers' related to old ladies' underwear. In fact, we called the 'knickers' we had to wear to school 'passion killers' - a very apt description actually!

Oh, happy days!

Toodleoo,
Carol

[Carol]

Hi everyone!
Here are a few more phrases:

'He's a rum one' - meaning someone who is rather 'strange'.

'Bless his little cotton socks' - when talking about a small child lovingly.

'Snotty nosed' - meaning someone who looked down on his/her neighbours.

'I'll have his guts for garters' - a mother talking about her naughty son.

Love
Carol

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello all,

There is a great website for Bridewell and Tothill found here..

http://knowledgeoflondon.com/bridewell.html

best wishes

Phil

Here's a thread on period police stations and bridewells in Liverpool on the Yo Liverpool forum.

Enjoy browsing through it.

Chris

[Archaic]

Bridewell, Early Prisons & Prison Reforms

Thanks for the info about Bridewell, Phil.

I think one of the main reasons that Bridewell was created as a prison for the "indigent" was that in the old days prisoners were expected to help pay for their own upkeep. Prisoners had to pay the goaler for every service. Well-to do prisoners could afford to do so, and often lived in comparative luxury with their own food, drink, books and even furnishings brought in to them.

Throughout the 18th C., well-to-do prisoners were usually kept in much better quarters than the poorer prisoners and were allowed to have their own food brought in. The poor were crammed into large over-crowded cells that were notoriously cold and damp, and only the barest minimum of food was provided for them. The government did not want to pay for their upkeep. In the late 18th C. the "solution" to this problem was to send the indigent prisoners to penal colonies such as Australia. I believe over 150,000 people were sent, some of them children.

Later in 1800's there were Social Reform Movements in both England and America, and campaigns for Prison Reform began. The Quakers played an active role in this.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

There is a great website for Bridewell and Tothill found here..

http://knowledgeoflondon.com/bridewell.html

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Bridewell

("Bridewell" is an old English word for prison.)

Hello all,

Many thanks for that reminder Archaic. A "Bridewell" was originally, a for a long time, a specific type of prison.

Bridewell Palace in London, was originally a home of King Henry VIII, and only much later became a poorhouse and prison. The palace itself was built on the site of the medieval of St Bride's Inn for Henry VIII, who actually lived there between 1515–1523. It stands on the banks of the River Fleet, it was named after a nearby well dedicated to St Bride. As many of you may know, the river Fleet gives its name to the famous "Fleet Street".

30 years after Henry VIII lived there, in 1553, and after his death, his son, Edward VI presented the palace to the City of London for the housing of homeless children and for the punishment of "disorderly women".

The City took full possession in 1556 and turned the palace into both a prison, a hospital and also workrooms. The name "Bridewell" was also adopted for other similar prisons in London, including the Clerkenwell Bridewell (opened in 1615) and Tothill Fields Bridewell, which is situated in Westminster.

The prison that was formed by the City Of London Authorities, used the same name. However, and more importantly, it was later applied to the many other, similar establishments, for which an alternative name was houses of correction, though these were mainly prisons only for the poor and indigent.

There was, I believe an official difference between "Bridewells" and prisons.. but in 1865 this difference was abolished , mostly because much of the work of the old "Bridewells" was long since been taken over by the workhouses .

Similar places all over England, Ireland, and even Canada as well as in the United States also used and borrowed the name "Bridewell". Nowadays, the term itself apparently lives on in the names of a few police stations that were once attached to a "Bridewell", especially in Ireland, I believe.

I hope this is of some interest to all. More can be found here..

JOHN CANNON. "Bridewell." The Oxford Companion to British History. 2002. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Br...Bridewell-full

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

You had me at "knickers".

Hi GM.

Have you also heard the term "Black Maria" used for a fancy Victorian era horse-drawn hearse?

That's what they call the famous one in Tombstone, Arizona. (It's wonderfully gothic and creepy-looking!)

For those not familiar with the term, "Black Maria" is pronounced the way it would have been in the early 1800's, "Black Mariah".

Best regards,
Archaic

[The Grave Maurice]

You had me at "knickers". But please keep them coming.
I know that "Black Maria" was a term used in parts of Ontario as recently as the 1970s when the police transport vans were, in fact, black.

[Archaic]

"Black Maria", "Blow", "Drury Lane Vestal"

Here are a few interesting slang terms c.1889 (definitions were copied in full):

Black Maria (English)- the van in which prisoners are conveyed to the jail or bridewell.

Blow (English), to inform. "Blow the gaff," to give away the story of a crime.
Blow (American), to brag or boast.

Drury Lane Vestals (Old English). Drury Lane, like Covent Garden, had at one time a reputation for immorality and debauchery rivalling the Haymarket and Regent Street of to-day. The neighbourhood was notorious as the resort and dwelling-place of women of the town, whether kept mistresses or common harlots. They were called Drury Lane vestals, and "the Drury Lane Ague " was a loathsome venereal disorder.

("Bridewell" is an old English word for prison.)

("Ague" is an old word often used to describe a malarial fever, which is characterized by alternating symptoms of fever, chills, and sweating.)

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

'Knickers' and 'Sloppy': 1882

Here's an 1882 article where someone wrote into a magazine asking about the meaning of "knickers", so the term must have been fairly new.

Interestingly, they also discuss the meaning of the word "sloppy". It never occurred to me that such a ubiquitous word was so new to the English language. Apparently "sloppy" originally meant "full" as in "baggy" rather than "untidy" or "messy".

Elsewhere they discussed the meaning of the word "chilled", and the answer given was that it meant "to make something cooler" and had originated as a term used by grooms!

Gosh, if one of us went back in time to 1880 would other English speakers be able to understand us??

[Archaic]

"Deer-Stalker and Knickers" - Punch, 1890

Wow, how is this for a weird image?

A man with a gun clad in "deer-stalker and knickers"!!

It's a stanza in a long comic song about going to a "shoot" with the "swells"- going hunting with the wealthy.
(The type of shoot where you stand and slaughter pheasants while dressed to the nines and waited on by servants, then count the day's kill and have a fabulous meal.)

I believe that's also a pretty early use of the now-indispensable word "O.K."

Cheers,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Link To More 1880's Definitions of "Military Appearance" & Bearing

Hi Carol. The late Victorian and Edwardian-era knickers I've seen sound like what you describe but also had a very wide opening between the legs with no closure.
I remember holding up a very wide pair and joking that a woman could actually give birth while wearing them!

Here's a link to some more definitions of "Military Appearance" and "Military Bearing". I put it on the Toppy thread as it pertained to some recent posts.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2113&page=75

Best regards,
Archaic

[Carol]

[QUOTE=Archaic;168091
Not sure when the word morphed in England to mean "ladies' underwear". I'm guessing it was in the 20th C. There used to be a 1-piece garment called "cami-knickers"; I've seen Edwardian ones.

Hi everyone,
In my 1896 Home Chat the word 'knickers' is used for ladies' underwear. There are several paper patterns that one could send off for. 1896 knickers just covered the knees and each 'leg' finished with a band to which the material was gathered with a 'frill' of lace. There is a paper pattern for 'drawers' which also covered the knees but without the bands so that the 'legs' hang loose.

In the same Home Chat there are paper patterns for 'camisoles' together with separate matching 'knickers'. So I would think that cami-knickers is just a moderation used when camisoles and knickers were joined together. Cami-knickers do not seem to have been 'invented' in 1896!

Love
Carol