Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[Carol]

Hi Everyone,
Fantastic idea for a thread Archaic! I've only just this minute looked through the posts and I can remember 'fancy woman' being used regularly in Chatham in my younger days. It always referred to a woman who was 'a bit on the side' (yet another phrase!), i.e. a married man's 'floosy' or mistress.
The word 'posh', which is in use even nowadays, has an interesting beginning. It referred to the well-off travelling by sea to India - port out, starboard home. You had to be well-off to be travelling this way as cabins on the port side leaving England, and on the starboard side leaving India were the coolest and therefore the most expensive.
I'll try and think of some more.
Love
Carol

[Magpie]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;167808]

Jane, I don't think I've heard "bob-tail" as slang for prostitutes before. [/QUOTE

I've heard 'draggle tail' or ' dorothy draggle tail' for a prostitute (in old folk songs)

I've heard "split tail"--much in vogue with bikers.

[Magpie]

Fanny: A woman's sexual organs, not her behind as is the meaning in the US.

I remember when an English relative came over to visit us in the 80's when "fanny packs" first took off--he was scandalized at the signs in the various shops advertising fanny packs...

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]Jane, I don't think I've heard "bob-tail" as slang for prostitutes before. [/QUOTE

I've heard 'draggle tail' or ' dorothy draggle tail' for a prostitute (in old folk songs)

[Archaic]

What I Don't Know... Can't Confuse Me?

Due to the formalities of the writing of the time and the fact that no means of recording speech was generally available, I'm pretty sure that some words and idioms have been irretrievably lost with the deaths of those who used them. Since we have no clue of them then we don't know what we don't know and thus need no definition. Now back to the definitions of the utterances that we do know of.

Hi Stan, how are you?

I suppose that's true of many words in the more distant past, but the Victorians were great ones for cataloging pretty much everything. Also, London was the capitol city of the British Empire, so its own usage of English was thought worthy of intensive study. I've found a number of sources that explain the usage of slang & cant terms, and some even seek to trace their origins.

And you know me- "what I don't know" are precisely the things I want to know!!!

Good night all,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Bob-tails & Skittles

Hi everyone, nice to see you here! Thanks for all the great contributions! Please keep them coming.

By the way, it looks like my previous post went from being Post #9 on this thread to Post #17! In case anybody's wondering, it was written in response to Stan's Post #8, and I'm sure it was in the right place last night. (Server problems I guess.) - And now it just magically went to #18 so it now comes after this post!

Jane, I don't think I've heard "bob-tail" as slang for prostitutes before. "Bob-tail" was a style developed for horses. There was a major craze for docking the tails of carriage horses, and sometimes riding horses too. It left them with very short tails like short plumes, and it was supposed to look chic. (It's actually rather cruel, as it leaves them unable to swat flies away with their tails -probably the main reason horses even have tails.)

I wonder if prostitutes were called "bobtails" because they tried to be showy...but I can't help wondering if its also because they might have tried to call attention to their figures? A bobbed tail drew attention to a horse's posterior. Since a picture speaks a thousand words, I attached an illustration of a bob-tailed horse and a photo of the famous upper-class courtesan "Skittles" to do the explaining for me.

Cheers,
Archaic

[Monty]

I'm more of a palari man meself.

Janie,

Bangtail, I suspect, was taken from the Jack the Ripper mini series with Michael Caine. It certainly is in Mark Daniels book adaptation, its in the Glossary.

I reccomend Lee Jacksons site for slang and its use.

Monty

[Adam Went]

Many of the lower classes and criminals in Victorian London had their own language of sorts which they almost classed as a "secret code", and they would talk in this code if potential informants or policemen were lurking near them.....in fact, it was little more complicated than saying their words backwards.

For instance, "Top of Reeb" meant "Pot of Beer". Nicknames also had a lot more literal meanings back then - Long Liz and Dark Annie we already know about, but then there was Lushing Loo, Cast-Iron Poll, etc.
Quite clever really.

Cheers,
Adam.

[babybird67]

thanks for those links Jane

I had the etymology one but the crime one was new to me.

Jen xx

[Steven Russell]

My favourite is "Shabby genteel", a phrase I have started using to explain my own threadbare wardrobe as a deliberate fashion statement.

Best, Steve.

[Jane Coram]

Hi All,

Harry must remember loads of the old terms. I'm not sure what part of the country you're in Harry, so they may be a bit different, but I bet a lot of them overlap!

I'm sure a lot of people are confused by some Cockney terms. Here are a few that would have been around in Jack's time, although I don't know how long they would have been around before that.

Duck: An expression used to signify affection, such as 'Are you alright duck?'
Could be used to a man or woman.

Daft 'aporth: someone who had done something silly or was considered a bit dopey. I.e 'You're a daft 'aporth.'

'aporth is short for 'halfpenny worth.'

Slap and tickle: any sexual contact ranging from a cuddle to full blown sex.

Keep yer 'and on yer 'apenny: The usual parting comment to a daughter going out on the town for the night. In other words, don't let any bloke get into your knickers. The literal meaning is: 'Keep you hands on your halfpenny'.

Fourpenny one: A hard slap or punch, also called 'a right-hander'.

Fanny: A woman's sexual organs, not her behind as is the meaning in the US.

Coppin' a deaf 'un: Not listening. (I'm not actually sure how old that one is, I'll check it out. It might be newer.

Of course Cockney's rarely use the full phrase in Cockney rhyming slang. It was and still is abbreviated. I.e The Frog and Toad = Road, is usually just given as 'the frog.'

Well, I won't bore you with any more, but the sad thing is that they are dying out now and it would be a shame if they were all forgotten.

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

There are a couple of websites I use all the time.

One is and etymology dictionary: www.etymonline.com (weird but right address). This is invaluable for tracing the origin of words and there are some real shockers in there I can tell you! Words I thought were quite recent are often medieval!

Another one I use is the criminal slang dictionary on www.victorianlondon.org.
There are some good ones in there, although it dates to a couple of decades earlier than Jack's time. Many of them are still around today, so I suspect that most of them would still be current in Jack's time.

One I did notice is that prostitutes were called 'bobtails' not 'bangtails' as rendered in the film From Hell (unless that name was used as well and the dictionary omitted it). I suppose the word 'bangtails' sounded better for the film, whereas 'bobtails' sounds far less earthy. They were also called ****-chafers. It's worth going through the flash dictionary on viclondon.com, there is some good stuff there. Oh, it's censored the word, but I've got to put it or it doesn't make sense - it's c o c k. I think it might not be referencing what we think it is. I suspect it's talking about **** bird. Lol

Why are the posts all going up in the wrong order on my machine?

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

[sdreid]

Doing fine Archaic thanks. I was thinking of slang that had a rather limited use but of course can't say for sure.

[harry]

'Swanky' is an old word used by victorians.Generally referred to the better off who dressed well,lived in nice houses,and exhibited a'Toffey nosed'atitude.

'Married well',or,'Made a good catch' refered generally to a poorer person who married 'Into money'.

'Gaffer'or'Guvenner' was the boss.'Brood' was the children of a family.(parents would refer to my brood)
'Sloush hat' was a flat peaked cap.

These are some of the expressions used by my parents and grandparents(victorians),and not used by my grandchildren.Some may have been just regional.

[sdreid]

Due to the formalities of the writing of the time and the fact that no means of recording speech was generally available, I'm pretty sure that some words and idioms have been irretrievably lost with the deaths of those who used them. Since we have no clue of them then we don't know what we don't know and thus need no definition. Now back to the definitions of the utterances that we do know of.