Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

There is a great website for Bridewell and Tothill found here..

http://knowledgeoflondon.com/bridewell.html

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

Bridewell, Early Prisons & Prison Reforms

Thanks for the info about Bridewell, Phil.

I think one of the main reasons that Bridewell was created as a prison for the "indigent" was that in the old days prisoners were expected to help pay for their own upkeep. Prisoners had to pay the goaler for every service. Well-to do prisoners could afford to do so, and often lived in comparative luxury with their own food, drink, books and even furnishings brought in to them.

Throughout the 18th C., well-to-do prisoners were usually kept in much better quarters than the poorer prisoners and were allowed to have their own food brought in. The poor were crammed into large over-crowded cells that were notoriously cold and damp, and only the barest minimum of food was provided for them. The government did not want to pay for their upkeep. In the late 18th C. the "solution" to this problem was to send the indigent prisoners to penal colonies such as Australia. I believe over 150,000 people were sent, some of them children.

Later in 1800's there were Social Reform Movements in both England and America, and campaigns for Prison Reform began. The Quakers played an active role in this.

Best regards,
Archaic

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello all,

There is a great website for Bridewell and Tothill found here..

http://knowledgeoflondon.com/bridewell.html

best wishes

Phil

Here's a thread on period police stations and bridewells in Liverpool on the Yo Liverpool forum.

Enjoy browsing through it.

Chris

[Carol]

Hi everyone!
Here are a few more phrases:

'He's a rum one' - meaning someone who is rather 'strange'.

'Bless his little cotton socks' - when talking about a small child lovingly.

'Snotty nosed' - meaning someone who looked down on his/her neighbours.

'I'll have his guts for garters' - a mother talking about her naughty son.

Love
Carol

[Carol]

I know that "Black Maria" was a term used in parts of Ontario as recently as the 1970s when the police transport vans were, in fact, black.

I can remember the black police transport vans being called Black Marias. Pronounced as Archaic says - Mariah. I can remember my first acquaintance with the name when I was very young. My mother looked out of our back door and said 'There's a Black Maria outside of Mrs So-and-so's'. I climbed up on a chair so I could also see but couldn't see anyone(!). Then Mum explained what a Black Maria was!

I can remember back in the 1950's a very loose fitting jumper (sweater) coming into fashion for young women. It was called a 'sloppy Joe'. If I remember correctly it was worn with very tight slacks (pants).

As we were getting older (early teens) we no longer wore 'knickers' outside of school hours. Instead we wore 'panties' (even though they might look the same!). We felt that the word 'knickers' related to old ladies' underwear. In fact, we called the 'knickers' we had to wear to school 'passion killers' - a very apt description actually!

Oh, happy days!

Toodleoo,
Carol

[ansonfish]

Certainly Black Maria (pronounced as in Mariah Carey) was used in Plymouth area in the 1970's. Cant say I've heard it since then and maybe the term has been consigned to history.
At the start of this thread it said prostitute was never used as an occupation in Victorian England. Not sure how unusual it is but there were two listed in the Castle Inn, Bishop's Stortford 1888.

[The Grave Maurice]

You're welcome to ask about Victorian clothing and accessories too. I have a background in antique clothing, so I'll do my best to explain them and perhaps post photos or illustrations.

I happened upon this book today, Archaic. If you haven't got it already, it seems like a bargain.

http://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Edwardian-Fashion-Photographic-Survey/dp/0486242056/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299782437&sr=1-1

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Many thanks to Archaic and GM for their replies from previous postings.

Here is something that I have recently seen written, but have not heard since I was a small boy (said by a family member born in the 1880's)....

"I'll ax"

It actually means "I will ask" or "I will find out".

I don't believe this particular phrase or use of the word "ax" is in use at all nowadays.

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

The Black Mariah

Ansonfish, thank you for your post and welcome to Casebook!

Hi Chris, how are you? Thanks for the links. Hello Carol. GM, thanks very much for the link to that Victorian clothing book, it looks very interesting. Photographs are an excellent way to learn how clothing and jewelry were actually worn.

Attached is an excerpt from a 1922 book 'The Standard Dictionary of Facts' explaining the origins of the term "Black Maria". I don't know if it's true, but I've seen that story repeated many times in many different old books, so maybe it is. Does anybody know?

In America the term 'Paddywagon' was used. Historians still argue over its origins, but it was most likely because there were so many Irish in the Police Dept., especially in New York City where the term is said to have originated. Some people think the name also refers to the fact that the police locked up so many Irish immigrants.

Photo #1 is of a Victorian police van or "Black Mariah" and is from Victoria, Australia c. 1880.
Photo #2 is also from Australia, and the caption said it was in use from 1880-1920. There is a policeman at the back of it. I noticed that it says 'G.R.' on the side for George Rex, King George V, so maybe it once said 'V.R'. for Queen Victoria but they updated the inscription for each new monarch?

Photo#3 is the original 1880's Tombstone, Arizona hearse, which they call "the Black Mariah". Virtually all of Tombstone's dead were taken to Boot Hill Cemetery in this fabulously gothic horse-drawn hearse. Many of Tombstone's dead died violently, some of them shot by the likes of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday. It was said that the tiny town of Tombstone "had a dead cowboy for breakfast every day." The hearse is in the old Bird-Cage Theater, the notorious brothel/gambling den/theater that still has 150 bullets in its walls!

"Bird-Cage" refers to the very small 'box seats' high on the walls of the theater. Each is like a simple tiny room with a balcony view of the stage. The resident "Soiled Doves" would persuade their clients to rent them for the evening at insanely exorbitant prices, then purchase whiskey, champagne, etc. Client and Dove would watch the evening's stage-show (or not ) from their cozy "bird-cage".)

The hearse is in the area directly behind the stage, in the backstage where the performers got ready. It was custom-made and cost a fortune- it was by far the most expensive hearse in America. Tombstone was a silver-mining "boom town", so money flowed like water. Unfortunately, so did blood. The Bird-Cage is supposed to be haunted, and the backstage is said to be the most haunted area. It's certainly creepy...the whole Bird-Cage Theater is creepy.

I don't know if it's really haunted, but I took scores of photos in Tombstone when I was there 2 years ago, and every single photo I took of the hearse or the area around it came out so incredibly blurry and distorted that it looked like I was running when I pushed the button. I didn't even realize it until I was on the plane flying home and my friend & I were reviewing our photos. We were amazed when we came to all the blurry ones. They looked very strange, not like ordinary 'camera shake'. Suddenly she said "Look, the only one that's not all blurry is the baby coffin!" There were a couple of 19th C. wooden coffins standing up in front of the famous hearse, and my friend was right- only the photo of the tiny baby's coffin taken in closeup with nothing else in the shot came out perfectly clearly. (Note: The attached photo of the hearse isn't mine, as mine were all ruined; it comes from the internet. Part of the baby-coffin can be seen in the shot.)
All my other photos from the Bird-Cage and that entire trip were fine, and I've never had that distortion problem anywhere else. I'm still baffled.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Hi Phil, just saw your post. I've heard people in the US say "axe" instead of "ask".
"Go axe your mother" doesn't sound very nice, does it?

[The Grave Maurice]

I don't believe this particular phrase or use of the word "ax" is in use at all nowadays.

Like Archaic says, Phil, "ax" is alive and well and living in New York.

[Phil Carter]

PS: Hi Phil, just saw your post. I've heard people in the US say "axe" instead of "ask".
"Go axe your mother" doesn't sound very nice, does it?

Hello Archaic, GM,

From very faint and distant memory, the pronouncement of the word "ax" was rather strange. I seem to recall that my relatives pronounced it with more "s" sounding than "x" at the end of the word...all in a very broad East End dialect.... perhaps a mixture of the two, "s" and "x". As I said, it is a mighty distant memory of mine. I haven't heard it said nor pronounced in that way for well over 40 years. Mind you, dentures in the case of one of these two old people (or lack of teeth at all in one case) may also have something to do with the sound I heard.

best wishes

Phil

[Errata]

I always came across Victorian slang in the oddest of ways, although there is a very isolated community here in Tennessee that still uses it. One of the desperately poor old mining communities in the Appalachians. The last time the town had any growth was in the 1880's. It was essentially the last infusion of modern culture they had.

Drag-tail, draggle tail, etc. all have their origins in a simple commonplace phenomenon. Women who wore the discards of grander ladies, ladies of high fashion, almost never had the undergarments to support it's shape. No bustles, no hoops, no special corsets. These dresses had quite a bit of extra fabric to accommodate those undergarments. Consequently, when they wore a dress that should otherwise fit, it was far too long. They routinely dragged the the extra length for the bustle behind them. Visually hilarious in modern times.

I also remember "Peeler" being slang for a cop. Of course now it refers to a burlesque performer.

[Archaic]

"Draggle-tailed" = "Slovenly" & "Sluttish"

Hi Errata.

Your explanation of "draggle-tailed" is exactly the kind of obscure information I like!! It really gives us insight into those days. You're right, Victorian clothing needed multiple articles of specially-designed underclothing, corsets, whalebone stays, padded bustles, etc., to achieve the desired shape, and without them the clothes would tend to droop and drag. Thank you very much for sharing that.

This is from an 1883 dictionary:

-Draggle- To make dirty by dragging or trailing along the ground; to wet, to dirty, to drabble.

"You'll see a draggled damsel, here and there,
From Billingsgate her filthy traffic bear."

B. To become dirty by being drawn or trailed along the ground; to become foul.
"His draggling tail hung In the dirt."

- draggle-tail, A slut, a sloven; a slovenly and dirty woman.

- draggle-tailed, Sluttish, slovenly,untidy.

Apparently in the 1880's if a woman didn't wear all the many layers of underclothing demanded by society, it was taken as an indication that she was a "slut".

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

"Draggle-tailed" and "Dragging-time"

Here's a few more connected to "draggle-tailed".

Attachment #1 on the left is from 1889

Attachment #2 is from 1880

Attachment #3 is from 1883

"Dragging-time" is supposed to be a very old provincial phrase.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Carol]

Archaic:
Drury Lane Vestals (Old English). Drury Lane, like Covent Garden, had at one time a reputation for immorality and debauchery rivalling the Haymarket and Regent Street of to-day. The neighbourhood was notorious as the resort and dwelling-place of women of the town, whether kept mistresses or common harlots. They were called Drury Lane vestals, and "the Drury Lane Ague " was a loathsome venereal disorder.

Hi everyone,
When I read Archaic's 'Drury Lane Vestals' post it rang a bell in my head to do with actresses being thought of as prostitutes. So I've had a rummage around in my 'Jill of All Trades' library and have come up with this:

Drury Lane is on the outskirts of London's 'theatre land' and in 1663 (reign of Charles ll) a theatre was built in Drury Lane as one of two that could show 'dramas' by law. Since then three more theatres have been built on the site but all have burnt down. The Theatre Royal Drury Lane (to give it its present day title) was built in 1812 and is still in use. (Current address is Catherine Street as the entrance is there). Nell Gwynne was an actress here and she became King Charles ll's mistress.
Before the Civil War in England women never acted on the stage - boys took the parts of women. During the Commonwealth (1649 - 1660) all theatres were closed as being thought of as immoral by the Puritans. The theatres were opened again with the restoration of the monarchy (1660 - Charles ll) and for the first time women became actresses.
As actresses were looked on as prostitutes I think Archaic's post probably explains why.
Love
Carol