Ripper-Related Victorian Vocabulary

[Monty]

I'm more of a palari man meself.

Janie,

Bangtail, I suspect, was taken from the Jack the Ripper mini series with Michael Caine. It certainly is in Mark Daniels book adaptation, its in the Glossary.

I reccomend Lee Jacksons site for slang and its use.

Monty

[Archaic]

Bob-tails & Skittles

Hi everyone, nice to see you here! Thanks for all the great contributions! Please keep them coming.

By the way, it looks like my previous post went from being Post #9 on this thread to Post #17! In case anybody's wondering, it was written in response to Stan's Post #8, and I'm sure it was in the right place last night. (Server problems I guess.) - And now it just magically went to #18 so it now comes after this post!

Jane, I don't think I've heard "bob-tail" as slang for prostitutes before. "Bob-tail" was a style developed for horses. There was a major craze for docking the tails of carriage horses, and sometimes riding horses too. It left them with very short tails like short plumes, and it was supposed to look chic. (It's actually rather cruel, as it leaves them unable to swat flies away with their tails -probably the main reason horses even have tails.)

I wonder if prostitutes were called "bobtails" because they tried to be showy...but I can't help wondering if its also because they might have tried to call attention to their figures? A bobbed tail drew attention to a horse's posterior. Since a picture speaks a thousand words, I attached an illustration of a bob-tailed horse and a photo of the famous upper-class courtesan "Skittles" to do the explaining for me.

Cheers,
Archaic

[Archaic]

What I Don't Know... Can't Confuse Me?

Due to the formalities of the writing of the time and the fact that no means of recording speech was generally available, I'm pretty sure that some words and idioms have been irretrievably lost with the deaths of those who used them. Since we have no clue of them then we don't know what we don't know and thus need no definition. Now back to the definitions of the utterances that we do know of.

Hi Stan, how are you?

I suppose that's true of many words in the more distant past, but the Victorians were great ones for cataloging pretty much everything. Also, London was the capitol city of the British Empire, so its own usage of English was thought worthy of intensive study. I've found a number of sources that explain the usage of slang & cant terms, and some even seek to trace their origins.

And you know me- "what I don't know" are precisely the things I want to know!!!

Good night all,
Archaic

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]Jane, I don't think I've heard "bob-tail" as slang for prostitutes before. [/QUOTE

I've heard 'draggle tail' or ' dorothy draggle tail' for a prostitute (in old folk songs)

[Magpie]

Fanny: A woman's sexual organs, not her behind as is the meaning in the US.

I remember when an English relative came over to visit us in the 80's when "fanny packs" first took off--he was scandalized at the signs in the various shops advertising fanny packs...

[Magpie]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;167808]

Jane, I don't think I've heard "bob-tail" as slang for prostitutes before. [/QUOTE

I've heard 'draggle tail' or ' dorothy draggle tail' for a prostitute (in old folk songs)

I've heard "split tail"--much in vogue with bikers.

[Carol]

Hi Everyone,
Fantastic idea for a thread Archaic! I've only just this minute looked through the posts and I can remember 'fancy woman' being used regularly in Chatham in my younger days. It always referred to a woman who was 'a bit on the side' (yet another phrase!), i.e. a married man's 'floosy' or mistress.
The word 'posh', which is in use even nowadays, has an interesting beginning. It referred to the well-off travelling by sea to India - port out, starboard home. You had to be well-off to be travelling this way as cabins on the port side leaving England, and on the starboard side leaving India were the coolest and therefore the most expensive.
I'll try and think of some more.
Love
Carol

[Carol]

Just thought of a few more:

'a bit of allright' - an attractive member of the opposite sex.

'chip off the old block' - a son or daughter being very like the mother or father.

'he/she's got more money than sense' - someone who spent money on 'daft' purchases.

I think '****' in '****-chafers' probably does refer to a man's 'best friend' (not his dog). After all, 'chafe' means 'rub'!

Toodlepip!
Carol

[YankeeSergeant]

Sloush hat?

'Swanky' is an old word used by victorians.Generally referred to the better off who dressed well,lived in nice houses,and exhibited a'Toffey nosed'atitude.

'Married well',or,'Made a good catch' refered generally to a poorer person who married 'Into money'.

'Gaffer'or'Guvenner' was the boss.'Brood' was the children of a family.(parents would refer to my brood)
'Sloush hat' was a flat peaked cap.

These are some of the expressions used by my parents and grandparents(victorians),and not used by my grandchildren.Some may have been just regional.

Not sure if this is a different speeling or an incorrect one. If you mean Slouch hat, a slouch hat is a wide brimmed felt hat with or without a hat band. If you saw the movie Zule, it was the type of hat the Afrikaans (Boer) cavalry wore that left Roarke's Drift prior to the battle.

[YankeeSergeant]

****-chafers

Hi,

There are a couple of websites I use all the time.

One is and etymology dictionary: www.etymonline.com (weird but right address). This is invaluable for tracing the origin of words and there are some real shockers in there I can tell you! Words I thought were quite recent are often medieval!

Another one I use is the criminal slang dictionary on www.victorianlondon.org.
There are some good ones in there, although it dates to a couple of decades earlier than Jack's time. Many of them are still around today, so I suspect that most of them would still be current in Jack's time.

One I did notice is that prostitutes were called 'bobtails' not 'bangtails' as rendered in the film From Hell (unless that name was used as well and the dictionary omitted it). I suppose the word 'bangtails' sounded better for the film, whereas 'bobtails' sounds far less earthy. They were also called ****-chafers. It's worth going through the flash dictionary on viclondon.com, there is some good stuff there. Oh, it's censored the word, but I've got to put it or it doesn't make sense - it's c o c k. I think it might not be referencing what we think it is. I suspect it's talking about **** bird. Lol

Why are the posts all going up in the wrong order on my machine?

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx

Hi Janie, Unfortunates was used when talking about prostitutes as was the euphanism "Soiled doves" Cheers,

[YankeeSergeant]

split tail

[QUOTE=Magpie;167811]

I've heard "split tail"--much in vogue with bikers.

I first heard that term in the Navy back eons ago it seems like.

[Archaic]

Great work everybody! (Hi Carol )

I remember when an English relative came over to visit us in the 80's when "fanny packs" first took off--he was scandalized at the signs in the various shops advertising fanny packs...

Hi Magpie. That's a good one- now that I have enough English friends to get the joke! For the sake of our British friends, over here "fanny" is a very polite euphemism for "derriere"; so mild it's used with young children & old ladies.

I remember hearing an English friend shriek into the phone when I innocently asked her what "m*inge" meant (rhymes with "singe"). I heard it on a British comedy/talk show and couldn't understand why all the other guests choked!

"Soiled Doves" was a popular term for prostitutes in the Wild West- that's what they were called in Tombstone, Arizona, home of Boot Hill Cemetery, the Bird-Cage Theater & the OK Corral. There's a good history book by the same name.

Another such term is "public women", which of course dates to the days when a respectable woman stayed home and shunned publicity.

The word "actress" implied loose morals & even prostitution well into the 20th C. The great Lillian Gish said that when she & Dorothy were girls their mother had to lie about their profession in order for the three of them to be able to stay at a half-way respectable hotel.

Got to get back to work, I'll peek in later.
Thanks everyone,
Archaic

[YankeeSergeant]

Soiled doves etc.

Great work everybody! (Hi Carol )



Hi Magpie. That's a good one- now that I have enough English friends to get the joke! For the sake of our British friends, over here "fanny" is a very polite euphemism for "derriere"; so mild it's used with young children & old ladies.

I remember hearing an English friend shriek into the phone when I innocently asked her what "m*inge" meant (rhymes with "singe"). I heard it on a British comedy/talk show and couldn't understand why all the other guests choked!

"Soiled Doves" was a popular term for prostitutes in the Wild West- that's what they were called in Tombstone, Arizona, home of Boot Hill Cemetery, the Bird-Cage Theater & the OK Corral. There's a good history book by the same name.

Another such term is "public women", which of course dates to the days when a respectable woman stayed home and shunned publicity.

The word "actress" implied loose morals & even prostitution well into the 20th C. The great Lillian Gish said that when she & Dorothy were girls their mother had to lie about their profession in order for the three of them to be able to stay at a half-way respectable hotel.

Got to get back to work, I'll peek in later.
Thanks everyone,
Archaic

Don't know how far back it goes but the term "Sporting Girl" was used for protitutes as well. In the American Civil War purchasing the services of a prostitute was sometimes referred to as "Riding a Dutch Gal" and the sex act itself was referred to as "Horizontal refreshment" Cheers!

[Archaic]

"Sporting Girl" is a good one, Yankee!

You reminded me of the famous French phrase, "les Grandes Horizontales". The Great Horizontals were the famous courtesans.

Not sure if there were So-So Horizontals.

Cheers,
Archaic

[Carol]

[QUOTE=YankeeSergeant;167863]

I first heard that term in the Navy back eons ago it seems like.

According to my bound volume of 'Home Chat' for 1896 bicycling was very much in the vogue in late Victorian times. Most of the illustrations show women wearing skirts when bicycling, but there are a few showing women wearing 'knickerbockers'. I can imagine the latter was the origin of the words 'split-tail', Magpie and Yankee Sergeant! Mrs Knickerbocker from USA was the originator of this garment for women, of course.

I just want to share something with you all - in my 'Home Chat' for February 22 1896 under 'Living Thoughts' is the following 'thought' which I think is lovely (haven't seen it until now whilst thinking of this thread).

'The glory of love is that it delights in doing for nothing even what nobody else will do for money'.

Love
Carol