Image Enhancements

[Garry Wroe]

I still don't know what the light-colored tall narrow cylindrical-shaped thing outside the entrance to the vestibule is. Maybe there was light-colored trim or a drainpipe or something along the wall slightly to the left of the doorway?

I think that you're almost certainly correct, Archaic. Whatever it is, it appears to be structural.

Thanks for the link, by the way. I'll check it out if I can make the time this weekend.

[Wickerman]

Here's a slightly 'cleaner' version of Jon's Goulston Street photograph......

Well if you are up to a challenge, do you mind having a go at cleaning up this alternate view of Wentworth Dwellings....



The original poster of this pic from years ago coloured the two street lights he could see, one yellow, the other red.
The question is, are there any more...?

Over to you, Garry

[Archaic]

Link To Thread Discussing Goulston Street Basement Areas

Hi Garry.
Thanks for the enhanced view. I still don't know what the light-colored tall narrow cylindrical-shaped thing outside the entrance to the vestibule is. Maybe there was light-colored trim or a drainpipe or something along the wall slightly to the left of the doorway?

I found the thread discussing the Goulston Street vestibule and basement areas for you. It's on the Grafitto thread and I believe the pertinent discussion starts at about this page: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5146&page=20

There are quite a few photos, and some show closeups of the filled-in basement areas today. They seem to have been covered over with a tile mosaic, traces of which are still visible. It's amazing that the exterior of the building has changed so much over the years.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Garry Wroe]

Here's a slightly 'cleaner' version of Jon's Goulston Street photograph for those who might wish to indulge in a little lamp spotting ...



Many thanks also to those who expressed a view on the basement area. I'm only surprised that this hasn't been discussed in greater depth elsewhere on the boards.

[The Grave Maurice]

When I first envisaged the location of the graffito (several decades ago) I placed it exactly where Jon put it. (Pace, all the scholarship to the contrary.) However, this thread is about images and we should try to keep on topic.

[Archaic]

Hi guys. Garry, I'll have another look later at the two images. The Petticoat Lane image seems to have a light sort of bone-colored linear object in front of the doorway. Maybe this is just a bizarre light reflection, but it seems strange for red brick, and is similar in color (bone or clay) and position the the street lamp in the 70's photo. Of course when antique photos are enhanced and enlarged odd little artifacts often appear.

I don't think the killer threw the apron piece there accident, and I don't think the graffito was just a coincidence. But it's perfectly fine with me if others hold different views.

Hi Jon, thanks for the close-up of the Goulston vestibule.Yes, I can see the word "lamp" in the diagram. It's a bit to the right of the red letter A and written sideways. It's not terribly neat, and appears to be both smudged and faded, but I can see it.

I can picture things much more clearly now thanks to all of you who have kindly shared photos, drawings, and diagrams.Thank you!

I've spent years ruining my eyes reading the itty-bitty inscriptions on antique jewelry and other antique items. Plus I've been a read-aholic since I was a little kid. Now they say computers are terrible for the eyes too... Great! At least I've already got a German Shepherd, but unfortunately his reading seems limited to the words "Park", "Lake" and "Petsmart".

Best regards,
Archaic

[Wickerman]

.....It appears to me that a light-colored street-lamp is visible in front of the Goulston St doorway in each one....

Wow!, my eyesight must be worse than I thought...


Good point though, I remember long debates years ago about the location of a streetlight on that side of Goulston St. - nothing was confirmed to my recollection.

Foster's map for the Eddowes Inquest does indicate a 'Lamp' in the vicinity, but the accuracy of its placement may be debatable.
As you're eyesight is better than mine you should be able to read the scribble on the right-side of this pic. it says "Lamp", and an arrow seems to point to a location to the left (north) of the 'A', presumed to be where the piece of apron was found.




However, here is an earlier map, 1873, which shows a lamppost (circled in red) almost at the intersection with New Goulston St., but this is to the right (south) of the GSG/Apron location. The purple circles identify lamps which hang from buildings.
If the streetlamp truely was to the south in 1888, then the GSG was written in the shade of the glow of the streetlamp, hardly ideal.




The GSG is purported to have been on the right-side of the arch, thus:



But, I don't believe the GSG had anything to do with the crimes.

Regards, Jon S.

[DrHopper]

It was the East End Drawings and Photographs thread, Ken. Prior to that particular discussion I’d had no idea that the basement area existed at the time of the killings.


I can’t make out a street lamp in Jon’s image, I’m afraid, Archaic. There again, such has been the deterioration in my eyesight over the last two or three years that I really ought to be walking about with a white stick and Labrador.


Perhaps, Archaic. But maybe the killer really did write the ‘Juwes’ message after all. Equally, I have long believed that the apron remnant was used to wrap up the stolen body parts and that the killer entered the vestibule to transfer these into a handkerchief or suchlike. Whatever one’s belief, however, the probability that the vestibule held a greater significance for the Ripper than that of a mere disposal site seems overwhelming to my way of thinking.

This is certainly true, but what do we mean by significance. I must admit to being sceptical regarding JTR's authorship of the GSG, and that his discarding of the apron at that particular spot was simply coincident (in understanding it's function, I agree with Mr Wroe - the apron was a wrapper).
To answer the question of why the Ripper didn't simply toss the apron over the side of the cellar is tricky, but i suspect that either a) his mind was elsewhere and it simply didn't occur to him - and then he saw the alleyway. Or b) there was someone else around, or he heard a noise... tossing the rag would draw attention to himself, so he turned off the main road, out of sight, undid his parcel, dumped the rag, and left when the coast was clear.
In this way, the 'vestibule' had a greater significance in that it provided a brief refuge. Just my two pen'orth.

[Garry Wroe]

Two more from Petticoat Lane:-

[Garry Wroe]

And does anyone know if a street lamp would have been there in 1888?

Trusting to memory, Archaic, I believe that Goulston Street was ill-lit at the time of the killings. Indeed, Bell Lane was described as one of the darkest and most dangerous thoroughfares in the whole of London. I seem to recall that the Ripper's activities gave rise to an increase in streetlighting in the immediate area - though not until 1889.

[Garry Wroe]

There was some debate on another thread (which I couldn't seem to locate just now after a brief search) where the width of the Goulston Street basement area was in question.

It was the East End Drawings and Photographs thread, Ken. Prior to that particular discussion I’d had no idea that the basement area existed at the time of the killings.

I was comparing the two shots ofGoulston Street, the one Jon posted from 1907 on Market Day and the one Garry posted from the 1970's. It appears to me that a light-colored street-lamp is visible in front of the Goulston St doorway in each one.

I can’t make out a street lamp in Jon’s image, I’m afraid, Archaic. There again, such has been the deterioration in my eyesight over the last two or three years that I really ought to be walking about with a white stick and Labrador.

Garry, I agree with you that had the killer merely wanted to dispose of the bloody apron bit, he could have simply tossed it down into the basement areas below street level, or disposed of it in countless other places. I personally think he entered the vestibule in order to discard the bloody apron next to the graffito.

Perhaps, Archaic. But maybe the killer really did write the ‘Juwes’ message after all. Equally, I have long believed that the apron remnant was used to wrap up the stolen body parts and that the killer entered the vestibule to transfer these into a handkerchief or suchlike. Whatever one’s belief, however, the probability that the vestibule held a greater significance for the Ripper than that of a mere disposal site seems overwhelming to my way of thinking.

[Archaic]

Goulston St. Street Lamp? & Disposal of Apron Piece

Hi guys. I was comparing the two shots ofGoulston Street, the one Jon posted from 1907 on Market Day and the one Garry posted from the 1970's. It appears to me that a light-colored street-lamp is visible in front of the Goulston St doorway in each one.

Is that what it looks like to the rest of you? And does anyone know if a street lamp would have been there in 1888?

Ken, I remember the thread you mentioned. I think Lechmere had posted some photos and Monty and others were discussing them. Not sure, but it might have been on the East End Photos thread.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Garry, I agree with you that had the killer merely wanted to dispose of the bloody apron bit, he could have simply tossed it down into the basement areas below street level, or disposed of it in countless other places. I personally think he entered the vestibule in order to discard the bloody apron next to the graffito. I guess that belief makes me kind of "old-fashioned" now... Oh well, I am named 'Archaic'.

[The Grave Maurice]

Great stuff, as usual, Garry. There was some debate on another thread (which I couldn't seem to locate just now after a brief search) where the width of the Goulston Street basement area was in question. I'm sure those posters will appreciate your enhanced photo of that locale very much.

[Garry Wroe]

Three more from the 1903 Petticoat Lane film:-

[Garry Wroe]

Many thanks, Jon. You are absolutely correct. The photograph depicts the southern end of the Wentworth Model Dwellings and not the Goulston Street doorway as stated.

Well spotted!