The subject of Jack's "anatomical knowledge"

[Trevor Marriott]

Hunter

The drawing that David and I are talking about, whoever drew it, was made at the crime scene. It shows entrails over the shoulder, entrails cut off and layed at the side of the poor woman, and cuts all the way down to her ...

The drawing then is not consistent with the recorded facts.

Kates liver was cut from the top left down and then across which suggest to me that the murderer did that to get it out of the way. The kidney feels like a hard rubber ball and is easily found by feel, cut the renal artery, pull as your cutting, and it lifts right out.

But you have to know what you are feeling for

If the killer was looking for an organ as a trophy then why not remove the liver because as you have correctly stated the liver on the left side is in front of the kidney. We now get back to targeting specific organs which I would suggest wasnt the case,

[Tom_Wescott]

Trevor is suggesting that Eddowes was murdered in Mitre Square and found just as described, but that her uterus and kidney were removed in the mortuary in the hours between delivery to the mortuary and the doctor's arrival. He's suggesting that a mortuary attendant sold the organs black market for cash. He also believes the same is true for Chapman and suggests that the reason for the difference in 'anatomical knowledge' found by the doctors is due to the fact that the bodies were delivered to different mortuaries, thus different men of varying skill removed the organs.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Trevor Marriott]

I know, Trevor.
It was me.
But logically, if the medics thought it impossible for the killer to have removed the organs...they would have bought your theory 120 years before you made it public.

Amitiés,
David

I guess people over the years have chosen to accept this theory perhaps no one has even considered thinking otherwise. Thats why a number of hardliners still refuse to even consider new sugestions and look at this case through rose tinted glasses.

Take away the removal of the organs from the mystery it waters it all down a bit makes it just another serial killer case. Likewise if you remove Stride and Kelly from the list of victims waters it down even more.

Elminate Druitt.Tumblety,Ostrog, Bury.Kosminsky. Prince Albert and Chapman in my opiniosn they should be removed completely from the list of likely suspects. There is almost nothing left is there to write about or to discuss. Ripperologist and other like reading material would go out of business.

Some casebook readers would be forced to venture oustide into the real world for a reality check hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
doesnt bear thinking about or does it. ? lol

In the first case of Chapman the murders scene and eveyrhting connected to the murder would not have rasied any concerns. It was apparent that they beleived the killer did have the time and the opportunity to do those things at the crime scene.

Where i think they were negilgent or naieve is in the case of Eddowes, they had the chance to consider the timescales which i have documented and should have realised it would take more than 5 mins to murder mutilate and remove those organs. At that point they should have examined the body in more detail at the crime scene or conducted the post mortem before the 12 hours when the body was left at the mortuary then we would no for sure when and where the organs went. The trouble with medical professionals is that they all will say they can do whatever is asked. i.e if you asked a modern day gynecologist if he could remove a uterus in 5 mins he would say yes and most probabaly he could. But we have to consider that victorian surgeons were not like modern day surgeons they were not as knowledgable and not as well equipped so this has to be taken into account when looking at the times the victorian doctors have stated in relation to the time they concluded it would have taken to effect the removal.

[DVV]

We know Trevor's theory, Tom.
Now the drawing... Inconsistent ? That much ?
Then the author has to be the mortuary attendant accomplice.

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

I am aware of Trevor's ideas. I was just pointing out that if the words Hunter used are to be accepted, i.e. the removal of a kidney, so "easily" as he put it, and in the dark, then all those things add up to one thing. Anatomical knowledge.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

DVV and Phil,

It looked like things were getting confused, so I thought for those joining us, a capsulation of the theory would be useful. No offense of anyone's intelligence intended. I completely agree with all your arguments, Dave. Trevor has a very sharp mind (and great hair), he just needs to learn when he's missed the mark so he can focus his mind in the right areas. At the moment, he's bouncing in the corner like a bumper car.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Tom,

No offense taken by any means. Thank you for the explanation. Agreed, encapsulation on such a long thread is useful for newcomers.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

No worries, Tom,

you're at your top-level tonight.

Amitiés,
David

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor is suggesting that Eddowes was murdered in Mitre Square and found just as described, but that her uterus and kidney were removed in the mortuary in the hours between delivery to the mortuary and the doctor's arrival. He's suggesting that a mortuary attendant sold the organs black market for cash. He also believes the same is true for Chapman and suggests that the reason for the difference in 'anatomical knowledge' found by the doctors is due to the fact that the bodies were delivered to different mortuaries, thus different men of varying skill removed the organs.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom please be correct with your postings.

I have never catrgorically said that the organs were sold by a mortuary attendant for cash. What I have said is that it was a likley scenario. I also have made mention to the acquisition of organs under The anatomy act by bona fide persons who would not need to pay for the organs with cash but would be allowed to take then freely

[Trevor Marriott]

DVV and Phil,

It looked like things were getting confused, so I thought for those joining us, a capsulation of the theory would be useful. No offense of anyone's intelligence intended. I completely agree with all your arguments, Dave. Trevor has a very sharp mind (and great hair), he just needs to learn when he's missed the mark so he can focus his mind in the right areas. At the moment, he's bouncing in the corner like a bumper car.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If anyone is bouncing its you not me i have never been more focused.

To the victor the spoils !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DVV]

Now the drawing... Inconsistent ? That much ?
Then the author has to be the mortuary attendant accomplice?

Amitiés,
David

If you are so focused, Trevor, would you answer this ?


Amitiés,
David

[Trevor Marriott]

If you are so focused, Trevor, would you answer this ?


Amitiés,
David

If I could understand it i would

[DVV]

If I could understand it i would

That's cute.

Amitiés,
David

[DaveMc]

[1] To the poster who catergoricaly stated Eddowes was eviasrated in Mitre Square and the intestines being found outside the body lay proof to that.

[2] You also have to look at the how the bodies were found in the case of Chapman both legs were drawn up. In the case of eddowes one leg was drawn up. Both those positions are not in line with someone performing surgery the legs being up would make it even more difficult to effect removal of organs.

[3] So at best I would say he only had a max of 6 mins to do all of that.
An impossible task for anyone to carry out.

To point 1:
The Edowwes Postmortem (without rewriting the record)
The intestines were drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder

To point 2:
"Knees up" is the right position for a butcher

Not too bad but might be upsetting to some.

http://www.channel4.com/food/images/mb/Channel4/4Food/ontv/FWord/series4/episode_06/hog_hunting/f_word_hog_hunting_gallery_06--gt_full_width_landscape.jpg

To point 3:
No it's not impossible.
This doctor is not even in a hurry
Less than 4 minutes to expose the entire torso.

***VERY GRAPHIC***
Autopsy video Line (graphic)

[Hunter]

if the words Hunter used are to be accepted, i.e. the removal of a kidney, so "easily" as he put it, and in the dark, then all those things add up to one thing. Anatomical knowledge.

That is correct; not necessarily medical knowledge or skill, but some knowledge would have been required. As I've stated, that could have been a number of people in the East End at that time including the many people with rural backgrounds.

Lets start with Annie Chapman. By the time of Poly Nichols' murder, the people of the East End had an uneasy sense that a unique killer was walking the streets. With Chapman's murder soon after and the mutilations that even Phillips refused to describe, that uneasiness turned to outright terror, confusion and a lack of rationality of it all. When Phillips arrived at 29 Hanbury Street he undoubtedly faced something he'd never seen before. Coming to the conclusion that the perpetrator had to have medical skill because the uterus had been removed "with one sweep of the knife" seemed rational to him at the time. This belief was soon fostered by the American looking to buy uteri story. But if one looks at what was removed and how, a different conclusion can be drawn. Part of the vagina and bladder came with it; not necessarily professional. An attempt at removing the reproductive organs was done similar to the way a child would cut out the sweet part of a watermelon. Anyone with basic anatomical knowledge could have done that. Annie's knees were up because it made it easier to get to the parts he wanted. Just ask any woman who has had a pelvic exam.

With Eddowes, it looks like the killer started to do the same thing. Both sides of the labia were cut, but for whatever reason he stopped and went after it in a slightly different way. I've never understood the statement that the killer had no design for a particular organ. The uterus was taken out of two women! What kind of design were they looking for? Mitre Square wasn't an operating table.

I don't believe a person could just grope around and luck up on a kidney. It is easy to find if you know where it is for the reasons I have previously stated, but if one doesn't know, there's a lot of stuff in the way. The liver was cut and the spleen detatched showing that he was definately after the kidney. Once again, a number of individuals would still be capable of performing that. With the other organs out of the way a long knife can be used to cut and pull to bring it out of the body. He could have been a medical student, a butcher, a common laboror in a slaughterhouse, a person raised on a farm, a hunter or someone who read the right books. They didn't know then and we don't know now.

The only thing that can be said about Kelly's murder is that it didn't take much skill to do what was done there. Most people know where the heart is.

Phil mentioned that it was odd that the medicos didn't agree on everything. I don't know what is implied, but I would point out that there are a lot of experts on this site that view the same evidence and come up with different conclusions. So, what's new?

Finally, Phillips had to notice at the site of Chapman's murder that the uterus and a great part of the vagina and bladder were missing by the way they were cut out. Her legs were spread wide open. If they were still there at that time then he would have to be implicated in removing those organs later. Brown mentioned that he saw no sign of intercourse at the site of Eddowes' murder, so he would have had to be looking real close at the same vital area. As far as the kidney goes, well, maybe someone else could have taken that and later sent part of it to Lusk . It may have been very nise.