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The subject of Jack's "anatomical knowledge"

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  • It is with regret that i have to keep reposting some very salient points, but i will do so one final time in the hope that the non beleivers will accept matters of fact, and also apply some common sense to their thinkings.

    Hunter suggests it would be easy as hunters do this all the time to deer. I would not dispute they do that but there is a big difference between a deer and a human body, I.e the organs are loacted in different places. The closest anatomy to a human is that of a pig.

    Just for the record and I stand to be corrected on this point is that pigs were not slaughtered in the slaughterhouses around Whitechapel.

    To the poster who catergoricaly stated Eddowes was eviasrated in Mitre Square and the intestines being found outside the body lay proof to that. I would say as i have before that it is not unusual in case where victims have their abdominal walls pierced or ripped open in the case of Eddowes and Chapman for the intestines to recoil outwards. As has also been said before and is fact. Anyone with any anataomical knowledge would not need to remove the intestines to take out a uterus..

    You also have to look at the how the bodies were found in the case of Chapman both legs were drawn up. In the case of eddowes one leg was drawn up. Both those positions are not in line with someone performing surgery the legs being up would make it even more difficult to effect removal of organs. Unless of course someone want to come forward and suggest the killer posed the bodies in that way. if you feel like doing that please refrain because its to ridiculous to even consider.

    Again i will re iterate the times, Pc watkins came into the square at 1.30am he says there was no one else in the square. By the time it took him to walk in and out again would be almost 5 mins, that takes us to 1.35am. he then returns to the square and finds the body of eddowes at 1.44am.

    Thats just 9 mins. That would mean at best that Eddowes and her killer must have walked in one end as he walked out the other. If that didnt happen immediatly then add extra mins onto that Allowing for their walking in and going to the murder spot add another 2-3 mins. That now leaves us with a max of 7 mins for the killer to kill her. mutilate her face and body and then perform major surgery on the body to remove the organs , and then to make good his escape. Which was probabaly when he heard Pc watkins returning. So at best I would say he only had a max of 6 mins to do all of that.

    An impossible task for anyone to carry out. Dr Phillips stated it would take him up to 20 mins to carry out the murder and uterus removal of Chapman and he is a skilled surgeon. So those who covet the theory that the killer was a butcher, or medical student etc or just got luck fumbling around for organs inside the abdomen need to really take a closer look at your beliefs.

    I hope this make things much clearer and i see no further need for discussion, however i am sure there are some that will see this out to the bitter end
    Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 02-18-2010, 02:03 AM.

    Comment


    • Hello David,

      I wasn't exactly thinking of Trevor's theory, as such. I was thinking of this one thing, the cuts to the garments. And it bothers me. If I can find an answer, a plausible explanation even, it would be better. I dont know the answer at present. All I know is that the detailed inquest testimony of the length of cuts to the material directly above the skin, and the detailed description of the cuts to the body, do not match up, and I really would like to know HOW the killer can make those cuts without cutting the material directly above them.
      The implications, if, and I only say IF, very tentatively, those cuts cannot be made without ripping the material in much larger holes, it is directly AGAINST the testimony of the Doctor... and brings much doubt into his testimony.

      I don't by any means say this is the case, but I am intruiged enough to ask a question or two that I feel is very pertinent. How can that Z shaped cut be made if the material directly above it isn't big enough?

      best wishes

      Phil
      Last edited by Phil Carter; 02-18-2010, 02:02 AM.
      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


      Justice for the 96 = achieved
      Accountability? ....

      Comment


      • Hello Dave,

        If one reads the inquest testimony of the cuts to the body and the cuts to the material DIRECTLY above the body..the chemise.. they cannot be done because the length and shape of the material cut leave no room for those cuts on the body...at least, I don't think so.
        As regards those photos, they have an agenda I dont even want to start on. I'll stick to the inquest papers for now. hahaha

        best wishes

        Phil
        Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


        Justice for the 96 = achieved
        Accountability? ....

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
          The closest anatomy to a human is that of a pig.
          Speak for yourself...I'm more often compared to a horse.

          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
          I hope this make things much clearer and i see no further need for discussion
          I totally agree.

          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
          however i am sure there are some that will see this out to the bitter end
          I'll shoot 'em.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

          P.S. They do match up, Phil.

          Comment


          • Trevor,

            I don't remember Phillips, nor any other medic, suggesting she has been mutilated elsewhere, by somebody else...

            Amitiés,
            David

            Comment


            • Trevor,

              And comparing that 20 minute estimate with the 5 minute estimate for the Eddowes murder (by another doctor) leaves considerable doubt over testimony.
              5 minutes? He couldn't have said more than 5 mins could he? Then the whole murder couldn't have happened in Mitre Square could it.

              Something very odd. AGAIN.

              I do agree with one thing Trevor. It is high time this was looked at WITHOUT blinkers on, and that possibilities be investigated not pooh-poohed. It might screw up a lot of pet theories. So what I say. The point is to find answers...whoever the killer was.... isn't it?

              best wishes

              Phil
              Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


              Justice for the 96 = achieved
              Accountability? ....

              Comment


              • Hi Phil,

                as I said, I peacefully await your thoughts.
                I've got enough with the Stone records these days...

                Amitiés,
                David
                Last edited by DVV; 02-18-2010, 02:14 AM. Reason: my English is too pure

                Comment


                • David,

                  Im working on them..peacefully....LOL

                  best wishes my friend

                  Phil
                  Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                  Justice for the 96 = achieved
                  Accountability? ....

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DVV View Post
                    Trevor,

                    I don't remember Phillips, nor any other medic, suggesting she has been mutilated elsewhere, by somebody else...

                    Amitiés,
                    David
                    I have never said that in any of my posts

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                      Trevor,

                      And comparing that 20 minute estimate with the 5 minute estimate for the Eddowes murder (by another doctor) leaves considerable doubt over testimony.
                      5 minutes? He couldn't have said more than 5 mins could he? Then the whole murder couldn't have happened in Mitre Square could it.

                      Something very odd. AGAIN.

                      I do agree with one thing Trevor. It is high time this was looked at WITHOUT blinkers on, and that possibilities be investigated not pooh-poohed. It might screw up a lot of pet theories. So what I say. The point is to find answers...whoever the killer was.... isn't it?

                      best wishes

                      Phil
                      Phil
                      i have no doubt that he murder was committed in Mitre square. The timscales quoted in my opinion clearly do not allow for the killer to have removed the organs.

                      By my calculations 5 mins to committ the murder and mutilations is about right. No time for organ removals
                      Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 02-18-2010, 02:30 AM.

                      Comment


                      • The drawing that David and I are talking about, whoever drew it, was made at the crime scene. It shows entrails over the shoulder, entrails cut off and layed at the side of the poor woman, and cuts all the way down to her ...
                        As far as the clothes are concerned, the killer obviously pulled up what he could and cut the rest to get it out of the way, then he performed the mutilations. He didn't do both at once.

                        As far as I know, a deer's internal organs and a human's internal organ's are pretty much in the same locations, both being mammals. Kates liver was cut from the top left down and then across which suggest to me that the murderer did that to get it out of the way. The kidney feels like a hard rubber ball and is easily found by feel, cut the renal artery, pull as your cutting, and it lifts right out.

                        By the way, deer kidneys are tasty cooked in a crock pot.
                        Last edited by Hunter; 02-18-2010, 02:29 AM.
                        Best Wishes,
                        Hunter
                        ____________________________________________

                        When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

                        Comment


                        • Hello Trevor,

                          If the doctor's timescale is in doubt (comparing the 20 minute comment you raised)... by definition, the whole scenario is, because it is the doctor's 5 minute comment that adds weight to the whole thing being possible in that time frame.

                          best wishes

                          Phil
                          Last edited by Phil Carter; 02-18-2010, 02:30 AM.
                          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                          Justice for the 96 = achieved
                          Accountability? ....

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                            The kidney feels like a hard rubber ball and is easily found by feel, cut the renal artery, pull as your cutting, and it lifts right out.
                            Hello Hunter,

                            Then the killer , like you said above, would know where to look for it then? Know what it feels like? Know how to disengage it from its attachments? All in the dark?

                            Sounds like anatomical knowledge. Doesn't it?

                            best wishes

                            Phil
                            Last edited by Phil Carter; 02-18-2010, 02:37 AM.
                            Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                            Justice for the 96 = achieved
                            Accountability? ....

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                              I have never said that in any of my posts
                              I know, Trevor.
                              It was me.
                              But logically, if the medics thought it impossible for the killer to have removed the organs...they would have bought your theory 120 years before you made it public.

                              Amitiés,
                              David

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                                The drawing that David and I are talking about, whoever drew it, was made at the crime scene. It shows entrails over the shoulder, entrails cut off and layed at the side of the poor woman, and cuts all the way down to her ...
                                As far as the clothes are concerned, the killer obviously pulled up what he could and cut the rest to get it out of the way, then he performed the mutilations. He didn't do both at once.

                                As far as I know, a deer's internal organs and a human's internal organ's are pretty much in the same locations, both being mammals. Kates liver was cut from the top left down and then across which suggest to me that the murderer did that to get it out of the way. The kidney feels like a hard rubber ball and is easily found by feel, cut the renal artery, pull as your cutting, and it lifts right out.

                                By the way, deer kidneys are tasty cooked in a crock pot.
                                Agreed all round.
                                Kullalit enna gubbät bätam arif miggib näw. Kä mitmita gar.

                                Amitiés,
                                David

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