I have a plan, is it worth doing?

[doris]

Having realised that, on the whole, serial killers do not start their murderous career with murder and mutilation, but with cruelty to animals, fire starting and sexual assaults.

And assuming that the ripper was 20 to 40 years old, because of both witness statements and profiler's opinions on the killers age.

So, say JtR was convicted of the above listed offenses from the age of 10 years onwards, that is 1878 if he was 20 and 1858 if he were 40.

So surely if someone were to spend ages rooting through all the court conviction records from 1858 to 1878, for, perhaps the south of England (assuming the killer didnt move from the north and that he wasn't a foreigner) for sexual assaults, fire starting, or animal cruelty.

Would that not MAYBE throw up JtR's name along with many others?

Iam unable to work at the moment owing to sickness and my days are emtpy and tedious, so it isn't a question of time.

It is simly a question of effort, and has anyone done this before?

thanks

doris,
and thanks for your kind greetings

[DVV]

Hello Doris,

very good idea.
My top-suspect Fleming was convicted in 1872 (see the thread "Fleming in 1872"), together with his accomplice - one Thomas Cox.
The case was an attempted burglary.

The Times (20 Nov 1872) has this interesting sentence :

"Both prisoners have been previously convicted, Cox for a similar offence."

What about Fleming's previous offence ?
I'd really like to know...

Amitiés,
David

[Mike Covell]

Great idea Doris, but there must be thousands of cases dating back that far.

[doris]

Id better get busy then.

doris

Perhaps casebbok regulars would care to help?

Apart from The Old Bailey I dont even know the names of any other London courts.
Could anyone assist me with their names?

[doris]

I thought I would start by buying copies of all the issues of the police gazette from the relevant period.

hmmm, the OU has lots of issues, but from 1900 onwards.

I found another site that has some of the different gazettes (I just learnt that there were several different types of gazette). But not for all the areas I have decided to research.

So I shall start by buying what they have on disc.

But if anyone has any suggestions I would be jolly grateful.

As I said earlier Iam unable to work, however as my ex-wife said if if a thing fascinates me I will eat and drink it until Iam done with it.

I think that a great deal of potential research time is wasted.

In the last few days I read Sugden's and Beg's book a few times each.
And Iam utterly convinced that any discussion of Kosmiski, Druitt, Ostrog, and Tumblety is a complete waste of time.
I wont dignify Maybrick by refering to him as a suspect.

Chapman is possible, maybe, but I think very, very unlikely.

So I think a new suspect is needed,and one that could be found by refering to the most basic of principles. As I have suggested.


doris

[doris]

I have decided to visit what is left of JtR's murder sites on Sat feb 20th. I doubt I will gain any insights from wandering around the east end, but I like the idea.

If any casebook regulars live nearby to whitechapel perhaps they would care to meet me and maybe enjoy a meal in what was the frying pan?

doris

[looby64]

Good idea Doris, will be interested in the outcome. Looby x

[johns]

Hi doris

Sounds like a plan to me, and at least you're trying to do something and getting your hands dirty as it were.

All the best.
John

[Harry Poland]

Hi Doris

Good plan. I've been trying to do something similar but have not got as much time as you seem to have.

Apart from the Old Bailey records there are not many other court transcripts freely avaialble on line.

You can do a search in ancestry.co.uk for some court records but to view the full data you would need to subscribe to a premium account.

At the time of JTR minor crimes were dealt with by local police courts - the equivilent of todays magistrates court. More serious crimes were dealt with by the quarterly assizes.

I don't think that there is a central repository for Police Court records, you may need to go to individual record officers to find these.

The link below is a good starting point if you want to look at assize records

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Research_Guide:_Assizes_-_Criminal_Trials

and here is an index of police court files from the national archives

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/search_results.aspx?c=CATEGORY:1:Law+%26+order+(421):C10017:&st=q&queryText=%22police+court%22&searchText=%22police+court%22&queryType=ALL&ShowAllCategories=0

Here are a few candidates I dredged from the old bailey cases to whet your appetite:

Charles and Joseph Manzi - The arson brothers of Butcher Row
Ernest Payne - Throat Cutter
Walter Wise - Attacked prostitute with bayonet
George Jackson - Arsonist
Willaim Anthony - Whitechapel's serial arsonist
Samson Silas Salmon - Not Jack the ripper but an interesting man - see previous post.

Good Luck

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I think it's worth doing, but it'll only ever give you a new unknown suspect at most, not give you the identity of the Ripper.

Without a name or picture of the man in question there's nothing to compare any other criminals or potential suspects to, and so we'll never know.

It seems more fruitful than to go over the same old stuff and come up empty though. Who knows, you may find someone interesting or a solid candidate for being the Ripper.

Edit: Like the kind of people Harry Poland has discovered.

[DaveMc]

In the last few days I read Sugden's and Beg's book a few times each.
And Iam utterly convinced that any discussion of Kosmiski, Druitt, Ostrog, and Tumblety is a complete waste of time.

Hi, Doris

Despite all of our wonderful 21st Century intellect, I would not exclude Druitt, Kosminski or Ostrog from the search.

Simply, we have SOME of the information and the officers of the day had ALL of the information.

Add to that Druitt and Kosminski are not implicated just once but twice or more times by different police officials.
Once again, people privy to ALL of the information.

[DVV]

Anyone knows about Worship Street court ?

That's the best plan I can suggest.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Once again, people privy to ALL of the information.

Hi DaveMc,

people with wrong information, as shown by the memorandum.

Amitiés,
David

[DaveMc]

Hi DaveMc,

people with wrong information, as shown by the memorandum.

Amitiés,
David

Yet, people will quickly quote another part of the same source when it fits their cause.
Go figure.

Regardless of Macnaghten's memo, those are not just three names he pulled up from a directory. They're pertinent.

Druitt is also referred to Albert Backert.
Kosminski is written into the margin by Sutherland
(I trust you already know those details)

I haven't read enough on Ostrog, but excluding him as a suspect due to his prior record of theft isn't enough. George Russell, Seattle, Washington, US was both thief and serial murderer.

Whatever Doris wants to do. There are police officials naming names months after the attacks and researchers naming names 120 years after.
Take your pick.

Dave

[DVV]

What about the MANY police officials who didn't believe in those suspects ?

Ostrog wasn't in London. And as far as I know, he never murdered anybody.
He's a non-starter.
Almost all info re Druitt are wrong.
Kosminski, as a local guy, is a bit more viable.
That's all I can say.

Amitiés,
David