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[Howard Brown]

Mike :

Remind me to suggest we eliminate Lewis Carroll next time,okay?

Ally....

1.First of all neurasthenia is a fake disease anyway.

According to you. You didn't see or diagnose Stephenson. You and I are not doctors. Neither were or did the people who maintain he faked the complaint.

2.There's no cure for it, there's no real treatment for it, so what was he doing in the hospital with it for 134 days anyway?

The likelihood that he had run out of options on where to live by that time. His condition, diagnosed as a complaint of neurasthenia, may have been related to a form of nervous breakdown or mid life stress. These are guesses, since I, like you, did not diagnose him.

3.You make the point over and over that doctors aren't going to allow malingerers to stay when they had real patients with such chronic conditions as TB floating about the place, but neurasthenia?

Exactly. If his complaint was legitimate, then it makes sense that they allowed him to stay for 134 days. Sutton, who signed his release, was not some newbie doctor. Sutton was on the spot. We weren't. Anything we might feel or surmise about the severity of the complaint is simply speculation..

4.The only treatment prescribed for it is rest and they gave up a hospital bed for someone to lie down for 135 days and no other treatment? Why wouldn't they have sent him home to rest?

Thats a logical and sensible idea, if he indeed had a home. So far, it appears he had no place to go after leaving Brighton's Cricketers Inn. More on this in the future from Mike.

Ally...one significant point in all this Harris-created ( Because no one else would have bothered to make an issue of him faking the complaint in the first place) hoopla over his complaint being faked is that while you or I can endure a lot of physical & psychological pain, not everyone can. Not everyone can start over without a wife at the age of 47,with a drinking habit, with a 20 year old thigh wound which must have bothered him,and being gifted with hack writer talents. He hit the bottom.

In light of this, its not surprising that a man or woman might seek help and go to where an affordable treatment was available. Yes, he's said to have been in Brighton, with all that groovy sea air and the beach and the salubrious surroundings, but he may not have been able to enter/afford any facilities in the area. On top of that, he might well have tried to live with his brother in London first and seen that idea....which you mentioned, of living in a home....shot down like a gull over Flamborough Bay.

The fact is Ally...is that we cannot make the assessment whether he faked a complaint based on what we feel 122 years later. Proust and Woolf both had neurasthenia and no one assails the medical assessment in either of those cases.

Bottom line Al...the best anyone can do in an effort to squeeze this 10 pounds of sugar of a suspect into a 5 pound bag of viable suspect worthiness is to assume the role of the diagnostician at the LH on July 26th,1888. That we cannot do. We no more have a right to diagnose him than we do with any ambulatory patients in the London Hospital or any hospital for that matter.

Nothing else...not the alleged v.d....the alleged cavorting with prosses...trips to here and there...initiations into the mundo mumbo jumbo...two scenarios provided by Mr. Harris ( The Ripper File and The True Face have two different scenarios for how RDS "was" the veritable Ripper)...his alleged penchant for violence and blood....all of that....every bit of that....is made up and baseless...after examining the original sources that were used to foist this mook into the pantheon of suspects after December 26th, 1888.

I leave you now to go shovel. You are welcome to help.

[Ally]

1.First of all neurasthenia is a fake disease anyway.

According to you. You didn't see or diagnose Stephenson. You and I are not doctors. Neither were or did the people who maintain he faked the complaint.

No according to fact. It's not a real disease. Even when it was being diagnosed it was diagnosed as a MENTAL condition, a nervous condition not a medical one. And the fact that we are not doctors are irrelevant. We can still use common sense. And common sense says that your attempt to portray the london hospital as a place where people were booted out at the least transgression is not accurate and that there does not appear to be any real danger in his having lost his bed. Not to mention, the "symptoms" of nuerasthenia are ones that are completely easy to fake.

Thats a logical and sensible idea, if he indeed had a home. So far, it appears he had no place to go after leaving Brighton's Cricketers Inn. More on this in the future from Mike.

So you are now claiming that doctors would not release patients who had no home? Is that what we are claiming now? That if you were homeless, and a doctor had no real treatment for you, they would allow you to stay indefinitely when there was nothing they could do for you?

This is again at odds with the nature of a hospital so desperate for money and space that they would kick out people at a whim. So once again you are using contradictory logic.

Not everyone can start over without a wife at the age of 47,with a drinking habit, with a 20 year old thigh wound which must have bothered him,and being gifted with hack writer talents. He hit the bottom.

Speculation without evidence. You say we can't go into his diagnosis since we weren't doctors and weren't there, and yet you do the very same thing, three paragraphs down. We don't know if he hit bottom, we don't know if he was faking. And why would he have "hit bottom" over the loss of a wife he was completely estranged from. Your saying he hit bottom is absolutely no different than Harris saying he faked neurasthenia. Both are pure speculation, based on what you want to believe.

In light of this, its not surprising that a man or woman might seek help and go to where an affordable treatment was available. Yes, he's said to have been in Brighton, with all that groovy sea air and the beach and the salubrious surroundings, but he may not have been able to enter/afford any facilities in the area.

Wait...he could afford traveling to london and residing for a 135 days there but not staying where he was?

The fact is Ally...is that we cannot make the assessment whether he faked a complaint based on what we feel 122 years later. Proust and Woolf both had neurasthenia and no one assails the medical assessment in either of those cases.

Nor can you make an assessment that he had hit rock bottom and all that other twaddle. And yes, people do assail the diagnosis of Woolf and Proust and have challenged those diagnosis. Woolf ended up killing herself and Proust ended his days a virtual recluse holed up in his home. These seem far different from the diagnosis of D'onston, who basically I suppose after "hitting rock bottom" bounces right on back and goes pub crawling and living the good life.

So comparing his condition to Woolf and Proust who clearly suffered from a severe mental illness, when there is absolutely NOTHING other than his mysterious stay in the hospital to ever point to D'onston being a mentally troubled individual is a ludicrous comparison.

We no more have a right to diagnose him than we do with any ambulatory patients in the London Hospital or any hospital for that matter.

No but we can look at his life preceding his hospital internment and his life afterwards to find clues as to the supposed validity of his diagnosis. And there doesn't appear to be ANY other symptoms or any fallout or evidence of real sickness. Indeed while supposedly so ill and confined to hospital he seemed to have managed to maintain a regular interest and avid following of all the goings on in the outside world, communicating regularly with people and newspapers and police. Quite an interesting interest in the goings on of the world from a man so ill as to be confined to a hospital for an extended stay.

[Howard Brown]

We can still use common sense. And common sense says that your attempt to portray the london hospital as a place where people were booted out at the least transgression is not accurate and that there does not appear to be any real danger in his having lost his bed.

At no time have I suggested that the Hospital would boot individuals out for the least transgression. Beds, always being in demand, weren't automatically handed out to someone with a bogus complaint...another factor pro-theorists convieniently overlooked in their "research".

So you are now claiming that doctors would not release patients who had no home? Is that what we are claiming now? That if you were homeless, and a doctor had no real treatment for you, they would allow you to stay indefinitely when there was nothing they could do for you?

Where did this idea come from ? I said nothing of the sort. I mentioned that it was possible that he left Brighton, went to London to seek quarters from his brother and failing that may have....may have....gone to the LH out of necessity and of course, his condition which the doctor's diagnosed as neurasthenia. He may not have wanted to go to the Hospital in the first place, but if he had nowhere to go and had a legitimate complaint its logical that he would go to the LH.

Wait...he could afford traveling to london and residing for a 134 days there but not staying where he was.

Not having the rates of the contemporary hospitals in Brighton in front of me to compare with the LH, one might presume that the cost at a Brighton facility or one nearby was out of his reach. In any event, he did roll back to London, did his 19 weeks, got released and moved on. 5 months later, he's back in the same hospital.

Nor can you make an assessment that he had hit rock bottom and all that other twaddle...

Hardly twaddle considering I have done more research on accident than you have on purpose on Stephenson. In fact, Harris contemplated ( without evidence, might I add ) that Stephenson hit "rock bottom" after murdering Kelly and found religion with Mrs. Woodhull. The fact is, is that Stephenson never denounced his Wesleyan Methodist upbringing...nor, might I add, was he a violent sexual sadist as Harris propagandized over and over and over and over...you get the drift.

So comparing his condition to Woolf and Proust who clearly suffered from a severe mental illness, when there is absolutely NOTHING other than his mysterious stay in the hospital to ever point to D'onston being a mentally troubled individual is a ludicrous comparison.

Not only may Stephenson been affected mentally, but physically as well. One of the illnesses that fell under the umbrella of neurasthenia was problems with one's central nervous system...a physical problem as well as mental. Besides, I do not know the specific problem Woolf or Proust had, but it might have also affected their physical performance as well. Central nervous systems are like that.

No but we can look at his life preceding his hospital internment and his life afterwards to find clues as to the supposed validity of his diagnosis. And there doesn't appear to be ANY other symptoms or any fallout or evidence of real sickness

You do know that Inspector Roots knew him as a abuser of chloral hydrate and alcohol 20 years prior to the December 26th,1888 rendezvous of the two men,correct ? You do remember him being mentioned as having ( from Cremers, which therefore requires verification ) a very limited appetite ,don't you ? You do remember the gunshot in Flamborough ,I'd think. Just because you have judged Stephenson on the limited available material regarding his health and regretably unavailable doctor appointments ( I also forgot to add George Marsh, who sized him up in 1888) and using your 122 year old hindsight are once more attempting to diagnose, like Harris did, without any valid basis.

[Ally]

Hardly twaddle considering I have done more research on accident than you have on purpose on Stephenson. In fact, Harris contemplated ( without evidence, might I add ) that Stephenson hit "rock bottom" after murdering Kelly and found religion with Mrs. Woodhull. The fact is, is that Stephenson never denounced his Wesleyan Methodist upbringing...nor, might I add, was he a violent sexual sadist as Harris propagandized over and over and over and over...you get the drift.

What the hell does any of that have to do with what is actually under discussion which is the actual health of Donston. Not his methodist upbringing, not his violent sexual sadism real or mythical. Where is the actual evidence that ever experienced a debilitating condition? You are comparing him to Proust and Woolf who both had a looooooooong history of medical complaints and there is virtually nothing anywhere other than his admittance to the hospital during which time he appeared peppy and vibrant enough to maintain a massive amount of correspondence with people.

Not only may Stephenson been affected mentally, but physically as well. One of the illnesses that fell under the umbrella of neurasthenia was problems with one's central nervous system...a physical problem as well as mental.

May have? Where's the evidence? With all your research, more done accidentally than I have done on purpose, surely there are several incidents that point to Stephenson's troubling health throughout his life. Surely there was indications prior during his time in Brighton and after his escape from the hospital. Or did his neurasthenia just magically vanish when he left the hospital?

You do know that Inspector Roots knew him as a abuser of chloral hydrate and alcohol 20 years prior to the December 26th,1888 rendezvous of the two men,correct ?

And? so because he was a drug addict this is indicative of what? You do know drug addicts often try to get themselves in good graces or admitted to the hospital for fake complaints to get their hands on drugs right?

You do remember him being mentioned as having ( from Cremers, which therefore requires verification ) a very limited appetite ,don't you ?

A limited appetite? Seriously? How about dizzy spells, complaints of pain, fatigue, complaints of unwellness. Where's actual evidence or indication of an actual illness?

[Howard Brown]

Hardly twaddle considering I have done more research on accident than you have on purpose on Stephenson. In fact, Harris contemplated ( without evidence, might I add ) that Stephenson hit "rock bottom" after murdering Kelly and found religion with Mrs. Woodhull. The fact is, is that Stephenson never denounced his Wesleyan Methodist upbringing...nor, might I add, was he a violent sexual sadist as Harris propagandized over and over and over and over...you get the drift.

　What the hell does any of that have to do with what is actually under discussion which is the actual health of Donston. Not his methodist upbringing, not his violent sexual sadism real or mythical. Where is the actual evidence that ever experienced a debilitating condition? You are comparing him to Proust and Woolf who both had a looooooooong history of medical complaints and there is virtually nothing anywhere other than his admittance to the hospital during which time he appeared peppy and vibrant enough to maintain a massive amount of correspondence with people.
　
I was not comparing him to those two people and I only used them as examples of people diagnosed with neurasthenia. I mentioned the Wesleyan connection to illustrate one other researcher's use of "rock bottom" in regard to D'Onston. Harris felt he hit rock bottom after the murders, while I think its possible he may have hit rock bottom in July of 88. Thats what the reference had to do with his health. Mr. Harris, of course, didn't know which hospital D'Onston was in when he wrote The Ripper File and therefore could not know he went in which was prior to Tabram's murder...which necessitated this faked neurasthenia bit.
　
We know of a few letters he shared with Stead ( which Marsh saw and relayed to Roots), the December 1st article and the letter to the City Police on October 16th. Other than those handful of missives and the elaborate Pall Mall Gazette article put together over 134 days, thats no indication whatsoever that he was peppy and vibrant and by the way, how did you come up with "massive amount of correspondence with people" ? Have you been holding out on me,girl?
********************************************
　
Not only may Stephenson been affected mentally, but physically as well. One of the illnesses that fell under the umbrella of neurasthenia was problems with one's central nervous system...a physical problem as well as mental.
-
May have? Where's the evidence? With all your research, more done accidentally than I have done on purpose, surely there are several incidents that point to Stephenson's troubling health throughout his life. Surely there were indications prior during his time in Brighton and after his escape from the hospital. Or did his neurasthenia just magically vanish when he left the hospital?

No, he went back to the LH in May of 1889 and stayed in the LH, this time for chloral abuse, for 70 days.
No one disputes the validity of the May 1889 registration and for good reason. It occurred after the skein of '88 had already transpired. Its only when people try to fit him up do they speculate on the 1888 registration.
　
While he recovered sufficiently in Dr. Sutton's estimation in December of 1888, he's back in a few months later. By the way, he didn't escape from the hospital as you suggest.
No one has yet to find any record of illnesses or shootings such as I've mentioned prior to his stay at Brighton. There's no need really. Many people get sick out of the blue or an illness develops over time and culminates with someone having to, at long last, go for help somewhere from someone. Its just as possible that he had no prior illnesses as it is that he was affected for a long time before finally breaking down and going to the hospital.

[Ally]

First, considering your forums use the same set up, could you learn how to use the quote feature? Your posts are becoming increasingly hard to follow as you have quotes from three different posts in your replies.

I was not comparing him to those two people and I only used them as examples of people diagnosed with neurasthenia.

And yet the point remains that people diagnosed with neurasthenia had actual histories of illhealth that can be traced other than one single isolated incident which is all that

　
We know of a few letters he shared with Stead ( which Marsh saw and relayed to Roots), the December 1st article and the letter to the City Police on October 16th. Other than those handful of missives and the elaborate Pall Mall Gazette article put together over 134 days, thats no indication whatsoever that he was peppy and vibrant and by the way, how did you come up with "massive amount of correspondence with people" ? Have you been holding out on me,girl?

Ah right. He wrote articles and numerous letters but only the ones that are extant can be considered. Fine. Okay let's change from quantity to quality of those letters. Was not one of those missives to Stead an entreating one asking Stead to hire him in a full time capacity to hunt down the Ripper? So while having hit rock bottom, laid up in the hospital in rock bottom agony he is job hunting also while managing to write articles for various publications, the pall mall and steads? If Stead had come through with a position, do you think his neurasthenia would have magically gone poof and he would have exited the hospital more rapidly? Sounds like he wasn't as rock bottom in agony as you are attempting to make it appear. He was able to work, correspond and write articles. Really sounds like a man in the grips of a terrible illness to me.

No, he went back to the LH in May of 1889 and stayed in the LH, this time for chloral abuse, for 70 days.
No one disputes the validity of the May 1889 registration and for good reason. It occurred after the skein of '88 had already transpired. Its only when people try to fit him up do they speculate on the 1888 registration.

Drug addiction is not neurasthenia. Neurasthenia is not curable so where is the neurasthenia??
　

No one has yet to find any record of illnesses or shootings such as I've mentioned prior to his stay at Brighton. .

Nope, nothing before and absolutely nothing afterwards. An incurable condition suddenly vanished the minute he leaves the hospital with no mention of it ever again in his life.

[Howard Brown]

First, considering your forums use the same set up, could you learn how to use
the quote feature? -Ally

Maybe.... I'm too busy right now trying to find killer, knife wielding chicks....


How says:

I was not comparing him to those two people and I only used them as examples of
people diagnosed with neurasthenia.

Ally says....

And yet the point remains that people diagnosed with neurasthenia had actual
histories of illhealth that can be traced other than one single isolated
incident which is all that

How says...

So what !?! So what if we can find examples of Proust and Woolf and Joe Sixpack with prior cases ? Its not as easy tracking down a rank and file guy like Stephenson as it is with a Woolf or a Proust. It doesn't mean much if we come up short finding a case to show some prior issues of health. Again,its likely to be something that culminated over time.

How says...
　
We know of a *few* letters he shared with Stead ( which Marsh saw and relayed to
Roots), the December 1st article and the letter to the City Police on October
16th. Other than those handful of missives and the elaborate Pall Mall Gazette
article put together over 134 days, thats no indication whatsoever that he was
peppy and vibrant and by the way, how did you come up with "massive amount of
correspondence with people" ? Have you been holding out on me,girl?

Ally says...

Ah right. He wrote articles and numerous letters but only the ones that are
extant can be considered. Fine. Okay let's change from quantity to quality of
those letters. Was not one of those missives to Stead an entreating one asking
Stead to hire him in a full time capacity to hunt down the Ripper? So while
having hit rock bottom, laid up in the hospital in rock bottom agony he is job
hunting also while managing to write articles for various publications? If
Stead had come through with a position, do you think his neurasthenia would have
magically gone poof and he would have exited the hospital more rapidly? Sounds
like he wasn't as rock bottom in agony as you are attempting to make it appear.
He was able to work, correspond and write articles. Really sounds like a man
in the grips of a terrible illness to me.

How says....

He wasn't able to work at the time he was in the LH...his doctor(s) didn't release him. The letters, according to Marsh, were requests to hunt down the Ripper, thats true. The letters sent to Stead that Marsh saw do not specify when he would have been capable of assuming the role of D'Onston Pinkerton.

A handful of letters is what we know of, Al.
Around 19 1/2 weeks to put them together....hardly "peppy".

How says....
No, he went back to the LH in May of 1889 and stayed in the LH, this time for
chloral abuse, for 70 days.
No one disputes the validity of the May 1889 registration and for good reason.
It occurred after the skein of '88 had already transpired. Its only when people
try to fit him up do they speculate on the 1888 registration.
---End Quote---

Ally says
Drug addiction is not neurasthenia. Neurasthenia is not curable so where is the
neurasthenia??

How says...
Apparently it dissipated satisfactorily since world reknowned doctor Henry Sutton determined as much and released Sudden Death. Whatever symptom he
had was assessed as consistent with the complaint of neurasthenia.
　


How says

No one has yet to find any record of illnesses or shootings such as I've
mentioned prior to his stay at Brighton. .

Ally says...
Nope, nothing before and absolutely nothing afterwards. An incurable condition
suddenly vanished the minute he leaves the hospital with no mention of it ever..again in his life.

How says...

Why must it appear before or after ? We've both had some serious health issues,I'd guess, over time that came up on us and leftnever to return. He complains in later years of being in constant pain when he put together the Patristic Gospels ( see the foreward)...likely the effects of the gunshot wound or something else that he didn't get treated.

How says Ciao

[Ally]

Howard,

Most people on this forum have an IQ over 20 so they are able to follow conversations which means you don't need to quote 20 preceding posts, only the exact sentence you are replying to. It makes it a) less redundant, b) less annoying and c) more clear which is actually new information. We don't need to re-read for the fourth time a message from four posts ago. Really. I can follow the conversation without the constant reminders and repetitions.

He wasn't able to work at the time he was in the LH...his doctor(s) didn't release him.

BS. You already said he could have left any time he wanted to. Doctors could not have kept him there if he wanted to leave and if he "wasn't able to work" why was he job hunting. I would think HE would have known his abilities better than you would and if he was asking for a position and a job, one can assume he felt able to take it up if it came through. And if he had chosen to leave, his doctors wouldn't have had a thing to say about it. So once again, supposedly while lying ill in the hospital, he's asking for full time positions. Not exactly the portrait of a man at the rock bottom of physical and mental health.

How says...
Apparently it dissipated satisfactorily since world reknowned doctor Henry Sutton determined as much and released Sudden Death. Whatever symptom he
had was assessed as consistent with the complaint of neurasthenia.

　
You can keep repeating that the doctor said over and over. But the facts remain these: Neurasthenia doesn't just vanish without a trace. People who are diagnosed with this condition have histories of behavior that meets the criteria. Their personalities are those that give rise to it and support its diagnosis. A 40 something year old man suddenly develops a hysterical disorder and then uses the time in the hospital to correspond, write articles and job hunt.

Sounds like he checked himself in for a spa retreat. Free room and board and all the drugs you can eat.

Does that sound like something a drug addicted alcoholic with no means might go for?

[Howard Brown]

It can sound like anything you want it to sound like Ally.

So you are now claiming that doctors would not release patients who had no home?-- you from before

I have already told you that I didn't mention anything of the sort.

He wasn't able to work at the time he was in the LH...his doctor(s) didn't release him.
BS. You already said he could have left any time he wanted to

I now ask you to show me where I said anything like the above.
You may wish to believe in this "possibility" of D'onston leaving the hospital, killing 5 or 6 women, anything you wish. The fact remains and will always remain that he was diagnosed with a complaint which encompasses several conditions. Believe it if you wish to or not. I don't really care.



This is an absolutely outrageous comparison:

"Your saying he hit bottom is absolutely no different than Harris saying he faked neurasthenia. Both are pure speculation, based on what you want to believe."

Hardly the same. I mention it within a post in an exchange with you to try and explain his decision to go to the hospital. I don't give a flying one why D'Onston went to the hospital. He was diagnosed with neurasthenia. End of story. Harris theorized that he was a killer based on some distortions of records. He HAD to come up with the faked neurasthenia concept, otherwise his two previous works would wind up going down the dumper since he only found out that Donston was in the LH before writing his third book....a fact that I pointed out before a few years back.

[Ally]

So you are now claiming that doctors would not release patients who had no home?-- you from before

I have already told you that I didn't mention anything of the sort.

So not only do you quote posts from ten back, when you run out of logical arguments you also return to them? Here's the thing. I said there was no reason for the doctors to keep him in the hospital when the only treatment was rest. So why didn't they dismiss him home to rest. YOU SAID, he may not have had a home to go to or another place. My statement is: why the heck does a doctor in Victorian slums CARE about whether he has a place to go or not. Whether or not he had a place to go is irrelevant.

He wasn't able to work at the time he was in the LH...his doctor(s) didn't release him.
BS. You already said he could have left any time he wanted to

I now ask you to show me where I said anything like the above.

""Of course the policy of the hospital was set up in case patients desirous of leaving the hospital after hours asked to do so. If they wanted to leave, there was the matter of appealing to the House Governor. """

Your words. There is a policy in place for the patients to leave AFTER hours so it stands to reason there is a policy for patients to leave during hours. Not to mention Donston checked himself in and could easily check himself out. Not to mention, as you have said over and over, beds were at a premium he didn't have a contagious or debilitating disease and if he had wanted to leave he could have.

You may wish to believe in this "possibility" of D'onston leaving the hospital, killing 5 or 6 women, anything you wish. The fact remains and will always remain that he was diagnosed with a complaint which encompasses several conditions. Believe it if you wish to or not. I don't really care.

Thanks for granting me leave to believe what I wish to believe but that doesn't address my questions at all.

Why would a rock bottom ill person be job seeking from his very seriously ill bed in the very serious ward in the hospital? How does his seeking a full time position while writing articles square with a very ill man?

The answer is simple: it doesn't.

This is an absolutely outrageous comparison:

"Your saying he hit bottom is absolutely no different than Harris saying he faked neurasthenia. Both are pure speculation, based on what you want to believe."

That was from like 20 posts ago. ARe you so desperate to change the subject now you are returning to something that is not outrageous it's basic comparison. You speculate without evidence when it supports your theory of what happen but condemn others who do the same.

He was diagnosed with neurasthenia. End of story.

It's only the end of the story if there's never been a case of misdiagnosis in the history of the london hospital. Since that's not hte case, it's not the end of the story.

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

Of course I said this:

"Of course the policy of the hospital was set up in case patients desirous of leaving the hospital after hours asked to do so. If they wanted to leave, there was the matter of appealing to the House Governor"

But that was only to walk around the front of the joint or to stretch his legs.. You're making it sound as if the Hospital would let him walk all over the place at the approximate times of these murders. Be real lady.

Why would a rock bottom ill person be job seeking from his very seriously ill bed in the very serious ward in the hospital? How does his seeking a full time position while writing articles square with a very ill man?

The answer is simple: it doesn't.

No such scenario existed to even consider dismissing,Ally. When he went in, he may have been rock bottom, feeling poorly, or whatever...again he had something that was remarkable enough to seek medical treatment. By the time of the letters he sent to Stead, he was on the mend. That would seem to be the case as he was released by Sutton after the Kelly murder 28 calendar days later.

[Howard Brown]

This is an absolutely outrageous comparison:

"Your saying he hit bottom is absolutely no different than Harris saying he faked neurasthenia. Both are pure speculation, based on what you want to believe."
Are you so desperate to change the subject now you are returning to something that is not outrageous it's basic comparison. You speculate without evidence when it supports your theory of what happen but condemn others who do the same.

Not at all...I'm hardly desparate. I'm just doing other things at the moment and went back and pulled that outrageous example up to counter it . There's no speculation to it. Its a bogus example.

He was diagnosed with neurasthenia. End of story.
It's only the end of the story if there's never been a case of misdiagnosis in the history of the london hospital. Since that's not the case, it's not the end of the story.

You're unbelievable. What does it matter if someone else's case in a totally unrelated situation was misdiagnosed ? How on earth do you, as someone unqualified to make medical determinations, do that in regard to D'Onston 122 years after the fact !

Later. Drop it Ally. I'm done with this silliness. Until you can show me how you can diagnose Stephenson 122 years later and why, if not to keep some faint flicker of hope that Harris, another non-medical professional,"might" have been right...then I'm done with this circular argument.

[Ally]

Ally:
But that was only to walk around the front of the joint or to stretch his legs.. You're making it sound as if the Hospital would let him walk all over the place at the approximate times of these murders. Be real lady.

No I am not. We are discussing why an extremely ill man would be job hunting. You said, he couldn't take a job because his doctors hadn't released him. I said, he could leave any time he wanted to. I understand now why you quote posts so much since you seem to have a difficult time following the thread and bounce from topic to topic. I am discussing how serious could his illness have actually have been if he was engaged in full time job hunting while supposedly lying ill at the rock bottom of his mental and physical reserves.

No such scenario existed to even consider dismissing,Ally. When he went in, he may have been rock bottom, feeling poorly, or whatever...again he had something that was remarkable enough to seek medical treatment. By the time of the letters he sent to Stead, he was on the mend. That would seem to be the case as he was released by Sutton after the Kelly murder 28 calendar days later.

You do realize that those two events are in no way linked. First of all, when he was released is irrelevant. If he was up to hunting jack the Ripper prior to Kelly being murdered which does appear to be the case, then why was he still in the hospital a whole month after the fact?

If a job had come through while he was in the hospital I am sure he'd have had a miraculous recovery and been out the door then.

Which doesn't appear to be in line with the idea that no one ever got in and faked an illness to stay longer than they needed to stay. The fact that he was job hunting for at minimum several weeks prior to his being released is proof that he was fully functional during at least several weeks during his hospital stay.

The fact that he never before nor never again evidenced any symptoms of neurasthenia or any kind of nervous condition does in fact put the whole thing into doubt.

The fact that you are so jonesed to disprove EVERYTHING donston suspect related is a logical blind spot for you. I don't think Donston was the Ripper. I don't believe he got out of his hospital bed and went out and killed anyone. However, that doesn't mean I think he was actually sick and spent all those days in the hospital in agonizing pain and depression and that his stay was anything other than taking advantage and malingering. He was writing letters, writing articles and job hunting. He wasn't in the depths of rock bottom malaise and if he was well enough to do those things, then he was well enough to leave the hospital considering that there was no necessary treatment that would have required him to be in the hospital as his diagnosed condition didn't require it. You are attempting to turn him into some sort of martyr conveying suffering and illness upon him which isn't evidence by the facts.

He left Brighton apparently healthy. Arrives in London and is immediately stricken with a hysterical disorder that leaves him the hospital for four months. During that time, he followed the events of the outside world, becoming involved enough to write articles, write letters to newspapers, to police to magazines and attempted to get a full time investigative job. This does not point to him being a real sufferer at the rock bottom of his life.

It comes on with no prior warning. Departs relatively quickly and leaves no lasting or recurring effect.

There is absolutely nothing in his history that points towards him having a nervous condition whatsoever.

Wild speculation on my part would be he was in withdrawal from chloral hydrate and needed a fix.

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

There is no reason to suggest that he was well enough prior to leaving. There's the possibility that the length of time he spent there was suggested or even ordered by the doctors..we just don't know. If he had wanted to leave,how can we say either way ? If he wanted to leave for good, then I suppose he could. Yet, he didn't.


I am discussing how serious could his illness have actually have been if he was engaged in full time job hunting while supposedly lying ill at the rock bottom of his mental and physical reserves.
Ally



When you mention he was engaged in "full time job hunting" that probably relates in some way to his idee fixe over Dr.Davies and his desire to fit him up as the Ripper either by being paid to snoop on him when he got out or to write a story about him. Either way or any way, he was rejected. "Full time job hunting" is not really the proper term here. Its not like he's going to be found behind a desk down on Fleet Street. Stead, as you know, did commission two articles from him which appeared in the subsequent months following his release.

You do realize that those two events are in no way linked. First of all, when he was released is irrelevant. If he was up to hunting jack the Ripper prior to Kelly being murdered which does appear to be the case, then why was he still in the hospital a whole month after the fact?


They do have relevance Ally. When he first went in the hospital, no murder, not even Tabram's, was committed. As time went on and he was on the mend, and the murders piled up, we find his interest in the case rising and it rises so much to the point that he began to send letters to the police after the Double Event. There is relevance in that as he got better and better,as he was nearing the end of his stay in the LH, the letters to Stead and the Dec. 1st article appear. At least it appears that way on paper.
I'm well aware that he was able to write letters, one of which to the City Police back in October,reaching their desks 3 weeks before the Kelly murder. There's no way one can say he was "up to hunting the Ripper" by him merely writing a letter offering suggestions to the police. Many people, possibly near a thousand men or even more did so, obviously not from a hospital bed. In addition, the December 1st article came after the Kelly murder, while he was still inside. How does this translate into him "hunting the Ripper" by writing letters offering suggestions ? He even mentions he was not well enough to "help" the police in the October 16th letter. There is no reason to suspect he was lying about his health at that time. Nor, for that matter, up until it was determined he was ready and rarin' to leave by Sutton.


The fact that you are so jonesed to disprove EVERYTHING donston suspect related is a logical blind spot for you.

Not at all Ally. I am now, and rightfully so, skeptical of any claims made about him since we're nearing 100 fallacies in regard to what others have said and what he himself said about himself. Its natural to be dismissive of claims regarding D'Onston and in no way affecting my logic.

Let me once more toss the gauntlet. If you or anyone here on Casebook, The Forums, or non-message board enthusiasts can provide evidence to correct any of the claims I have made about D'Onston since 2004...I will be not only obligated to accept the correction, but will pay that person $50 and you know I'm good for my pledges, Ally.

For three years, there's been a thread on this site and JTRForums with the collection of contributions from not only me, but from several others, which are refutations of beliefs used to "make" him Jack The Ripper. I honestly don't spend much time on RDS anymore, since Mike has been working on a book and it makes no sense at this time to put two out on the man.

He was writing letters, writing articles and job hunting. He wasn't in the depths of rock bottom malaise and if he was well enough to do those things, then he was well enough to leave the hospital considering that there was no necessary treatment that would have required him to be in the hospital as his diagnosed condition didn't require it. You are attempting to turn him into some sort of martyr conveying suffering and illness upon him which isn't evidence by the facts.

I've thought this before... I theorized some time ago that the murders actually gave him the opportunity to use the time spent recuperating to his advantage. He's no martyr and I've never suggested as much. He simply wasn't the man he was presented as being by those who made money off of his peculiar life. I make no money off of presenting the facts about the man. You're reading into something that isn't there....this assumption that I see him as a martyr. I have sympathy for the man,yes, considering that he's been considered the Ripper based on unsupportable evidence, but not to the degree that I feel sorry for him like I would do for someone jailed for the offenses falsely..


It comes on with no prior warning. Departs relatively quickly and leaves no lasting or recurring effect.

There is absolutely nothing in his history that points towards him having a nervous condition whatsoever.

Wild speculation on my part would be he was in withdrawal from chloral hydrate and needed a fix.

Al...How in the world can we know how it affected him ? He only mentions his gunshot wound, we know of the brain fever from 1867, and the 1904 mention of his decade long suffering creating the Patristic Gospels. There's no reason to assume that something didn't bother him, inevitably finding him in a hospital. Do we do this with other people in our lives now ? Do we doubt the veracity of a relative or neighbor who goes to the hospital for feeling depressed ? On what basis ? Of course we don't, unless we have an interest in their claims being proven false. I don't. I don't care why he went into the LH. I can't prove how ill or in need of care he was and neither can you based on the absence of evidence showing that there were prior issues with him. You yourself like to use that phrase, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Why is that not applicable here when it comes to Stephenson ?

Could he have tried to twist up a fattie in the hospital or huff some chloral on a rag ? I don't know. But I won't disparage your so called wild speculation because I don't know what he did while he was in there other than get busy with some letters and Dr. Davies.

I'll say one thing and that his behavior after leaving the LH is similar to how some, not most or even an overwhelming majority, act when they get all the toxins out of their system. He seems manic in his zeal to finger Dr. Davies. His reason for going to the LH might have a lot, a little, or significantly enough to do with his abuse of chloral. Yet, he was diagnosed with that all encompassing complaint.

One more comment Ally before I split:

You said:

"He left Brighton apparently healthy. Arrives in London and is immediately stricken with a hysterical disorder that leaves him the hospital for four months. During that time, he followed the events of the outside world, becoming involved enough to write articles, write letters to newspapers, to police to magazines and attempted to get a full time investigative job. This does not point to him being a real sufferer at the rock bottom of his life.

No way of determining that he was healthy when he left Brighton.
No reason to suggest he was immediately stricken with a hysterical disorder upon arriving in London.
He wrote one letter to the police that we know of..one article for the PMG ( obviously in November) and a few letters to Stead that Marsh saw. All of that,as far as we know, coming out after him being in the LH for 83 days...or 12 weeks. One could misinterpret what you posted to suggest he immediately went to work in the Currie Ward firing off missives and letters on a regular basis.

I think in the final analysis Ally...that he did suffer from his leg injury. Whether that was part and parcel of his reason to go to the LH, I don't really know,dear.

Later.

[doris]

Dan mate.
Don't be surprised by the attitude you find on this site. I have posted a few times, and with the exception of Rob Clark and one or two others, have either been ignored or told to "go somewhere else" (and yes I mean you Corry!)
This site seems to comprise of people who form little groups of friends who will discuss the most important points in finding The Ripper as was that a hand mirror under the bloody remains of Mary Kelly on the table by her body???? How is that going to catch Jack? It looks like an excuse to stare at a dead womans remains hour after hour "for a good reason"!
If you are not in the "in crowd" you are not in, Dan, old mate.
I have looked at The Ripper case for 30 years +, and, yes, my thoughts have made it into print. I'm the S.P.Day in Peter Underwood's book on the subject. So I think I know a little about the Whitechapel Murders. But, after 30 odd years, I know nothing that will help find the killer.
I find this site mostly populated by people who, seeing a post by a recognised writer on the subject (ie; Stewart Evans or so), will post and fawn about how they agree that there was 8, not 9 steps to Kelly's door from the entrance of Miller's Court or whatever!
If you want new people to come on this site and try to contribute to, what is, a 125 year old mystery - get some manners and get rid of the ignorent little turds (Yes, you again, Corey) who insult and belittle anyone who tries anything you do not agree with.
I, like Dan, won't waste my time on here again!

I am a bit outraged by your post.

I am, as you can see by my posting history a new boy on this site. But I have found corey to be a jolly nice chap, in fact he is the only member who made an effort to say hullo to me when I first posted. So I think calling him a 'turd' is way out of order.

I would have thought anyone whose opinion counted would have realised that matey's pentagram and NECKS nonsense is abject twaddle.

doris