Whether we like it or not

[Hunter]

Thanks for the reply. In all normal circumstances, I would agree entirely. But that "killing" there, with a Coroner making a real rushed hash of it, has a reason I think.

My point about the coroner is that he seemed to rush through the inquest because he had a near riot on his hands with the jury and thought he was loosing control over the proceedings, thus, incompetently ending them in one day to quash his little rebellion, at the expense of justice. However, there may have been some reason that Anderson didn't want Baxter to preside over the inquest as Baxter seemed to be professional and thorough. Of course, that's just my speculation.

As for Anderson and Rose... why he should dismiss those claims so vehemently, is something that only goes against the man and his behaviour.

I'm not sure if it does go against the man and his behaviour. He starts out at the begining of the murders missing for several weeks, giving it little importance;then tries to play catch up later when the whole series blows up in his face. He never gets a handle on it and uses Warren as a scapegoat; which was convenient for him. At the end he appears dismissive and underplaying the whole thing to the point where he "rationalizes" that Mylett was never murdered.

The Whitechapel murders appear to be an inconvenient distraction to what he thought his real mission was; going after "subversive elements". In later years he justifies it all by saying "no big deal. We knew who JTR was", while everyone that was on the ground at the time is saying, " No we didn't".

[Tom_Wescott]

Too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Just 'Indian Harry'.

to breaking in the door when the latch could be reached from the window

Don Souden wrote an essay called 'Time On My Side' for Ripper Notes a few years back that brought up a very good point. McCarthy would have had a key to Kelly's room, and probably would have known about the latch, since he installed it. However, had he mentioned either to the police he would have become a suspect, so instead he allowed them to obliterate his door.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ianincleveland]

I have my doubts MJK was actually killed by JTR,to me that murder was more "personal".Did Fleming,Barnett or hutchinson have proper alibis??? More to the point did McCarthy have an alibi,im still wondering why McCarthy let mary run up the rather large arrears in rent when it was pretty clear shed probably never be able to pay them off.Was he going round there for sexual favours???Was he trying to pimp her??.Im sure he had a key to his own flat,i mean if MJK had just done a bunk he wouldnt have stuck an axe through the door!!!.

While im first to admit ive nowhere near the level of expertise on JTR as most on these boards,i cant see the Fenians bumping off peniless prostitutes.And if the motives were political would not a single stab do the trick instead of excessive mutilation ie Eddowes??

Having said that Andersons whole conduct during the time was questionable.First off he has to be recalled from France,then he lets Warren be the fall guy,then he says Mylett wasnt murdered.The guy borders on the inept.

[spyglass]

HI ALL!
There are plenty of things that dont add up concerning the murder of MJK, most of them having all ready been covered here.

But let us add a couple more.

1. Barnett's identification of MJK's body.

2.She believed that she new who the killer was and was in fear for her life ( acccording to Barnett )

Also can I just add that the so called ripper knife owned by D.Rummbelow, is just like the ones used in the Pheonix Park Murders.
I know the provenance of the knife is uncertain and dubious, but it does make you think.

[Supe]

Spyglass,

She believed that she new who the killer was and was in fear for her life ( acccording to Barnett )

No, there is no record anywhere of Mary Jane Kelly saying she "knew" who the Ripper was, nor that she feared for her life. Barnett said at the inquest ". . . she seemed afraid of someone, she did not express fear of any particular individual except when she rowed with me, but we always came to terms quickly."

A somewhat contradictory statement, but scarcely indicative of someone in fear for her life.

the so called ripper knife owned by D.Rummbelow

As distinguished and gracious a Ripperologist ought have his name spelled right. It is Donald Rumbelow.

Don.

[Observer]

2.She believed that she new who the killer was and was in fear for her life ( acccording to Barnett )

Hi Spyglass where did you get the above from? It has no foundation in truth.

all the best

Observer

[curious]

Just 'Indian Harry'.



Don Souden wrote an essay called 'Time On My Side' for Ripper Notes a few years back that brought up a very good point. McCarthy would have had a key to Kelly's room, and probably would have known about the latch, since he installed it. However, had he mentioned either to the police he would have become a suspect, so instead he allowed them to obliterate his door.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

That same essay also suggests that Jack had visited Mary in the past. That was when the key went missing. So, Jack had the key to let himself in and then locked it (not latched it) on his way out. (I'm going on memory here and realize that's very dangerous.)

Now, if Mary were in a drunken stupor, as witness testimony suggests that likely she was, getting into the room without rousing her might have been very possible.

So, did he supply the drink, or had he just been keeping an eye on her?

or did it go down a different way?

But about McCarthy having a key -- to me his neglecting to mention that he would naturally have a key makes him appear more suspicious than if he'd just said "I'll go get my key." Surely the police would know landlords keep keys to their properties?

curious

[spyglass]

I STAND VERY CORRECTED!

I was trusting my very old memory on MJK/Barnett conversation.

And my sincere apologies to the incorrect spelling of Mr Donald Rumbelow.
It will teach me not to try and do six different things at the same time whilst rushing about, but that is no excuse and have learnt my lesson.

Many thanks.

[spyglass]

PS. I have just realised it was the Master himself who put me to shames, so once again my sincere apologies to you sir.

[Supe]

Curious,

That same essay also suggests that Jack had visited Mary in the past.

Now I am, myself, quite curious because i do not recall saying anything of the sort in the article. Usually, people aver--erroneously--that I claimed McCarthy was her pimp. Sigh!

Anyway, the business about mcCarthy and the key was more pointed, based on some previously unnoted discrepancies between the police statements and inquest testimony of McCarthy and Bowyer.

In the police statements of both it is clear that McCarthy stayed behind before later joining Bowyer at the polifce station. I advanced several mundane possibilities for the behavior but also suggested that, horror show or no, McCarthy was compelled to retrieve something from the room (though nothing that would implicate him in the murder) and having done so may also inadvertently sprung the lock shut. In any case, to admit he had a key would have opened a can of worms he wanted left alone. Hence the change in testimony late.

As it is, anyone wanting the full essay can find it under "Time is on My Side" in the Casebook dissertations section.

Don.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Don,

I need to reacquaint myself with the Dissertations section, because had I known (or remembered) that your essay was there, I would have included a link to the text for everyone to read. It's a good piece of work.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[spyglass]

SUPE!
I seem to be having a bad day, and now i must apologise for getting you mixed up with Donald Rumbelow, although you you may have enjoyed being likened to the MASTER.
Im off to bed for an early night.

[Hunter]

We need to be careful about deviating from Phil's original intent of this thread because I believe there's a conspiracy involved in debating Mary Kelly ; especially when Hutchinson is mentioned- people on these boards end up missing

[Stephen Thomas]

I believe there's a conspiracy involved in debating Mary Kelly ; especially when Hutchinson is mentioned- people on these boards end up missing

Hi Hunter

Sorry, didn't quite get that. Please elaborate like as in what conspiracy?

[Hunter]

A bit of levity Stephan.