Whether we like it or not

[Phil Carter]

Hello sox,

Thank you for your reply.
Very very rarely, do I become agitated enough to write without respect.
However you have managed to get me to that point.
Somehow, in some way, I really dont think you have READ what I have written. So I am going to have to spell it out..again.

Please tell me why, butchering harmless common prostitutes would further the cause of Irish Nationalism, tell me exactly how this was ever going to win over the support of the world in general.

FURTHERING THE CAUSE OF IRISH NATIONALISM AND BUTCHERING HARMLESS WOMEN IS NOT THE POINT!!!!!! That is your jump the gun interpretation of my words...AGAIN!

I have never SAID that. IF you bothered to read my posts, without jumping to inane conclusions, you would see that I have been STRENUOUS to point out that I have never mentioned that a FENIAN PLOT to kill these women existed at all!. What I have said, for the umpteenth time, though it seems I'll have to repeat it, is that the BACKGROUND, which I have well established, gives every indication of a Fenian LINK to the murders. I have asked, specifically,for others to seriously consider that the connections need thorough research...without immediately dismissing them.

YOU sox, have previously been the CHIEF accuser of anything I have written on the subject as being SENSATIONALISTIC, (which it isn't, if you bother to read post number 3) comparing my "theory" (I call it an observation) to Royal conspiracies and Walter Sickert theories. I haven't even mentioned those things. I have AGAIN pointed out that the BACKGROUND of the murders COULD have been used as a smokescreen for Anderson's CID to get on with Anti-Fenian operations. Pulling such comparisons of the conspiracies you have previously mentioned out of thin air is ridiculous.
(Sickert nor PAV were ever mentioned by any policeman nor official at any time during the investigations).

You also have previously (on another thread) taken umbrage at any hint that Robert Anderson's department can in any way be linked to doing wrong, questioned my knowledge of how the CID works, (without knowing anything about me) suggested that a good and valued friend of 45 years who worked in CID for most of his career is a liar, or that I misunderstood him, (neither of which is true) and on top of that, have the gall to now tell me that I haven't come up with a reason WHY the SD/CID files are so important. IF you had read ANY of my previous posting (No.3) it is entirely obvious why they are important. SO PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.....

THE CID and SD were all over the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper case, with CID detectives working left right and centre on it. DOH! As Homer Simpson would say... WHERE WOULD THE SD DETECTIVES' REPORTS AND OBSERVATIONS BE? IN THE SD FILES PERCHANCE? SD SUSPECTS? Reports on them ? Including Tumblety by the way, as has been previously mentioned. BY OTHER researchers. Get it now? THAT is why.

Such outward protection of anything so plainly obvious that could POSSIBLY, in any way show the CID up for being involved in any way in this case is alarmingly clear.

Seemingly without an inch of viable research of your own, yet critical of something you don't like that might just shatter the cosy little world of JTR as you know it. Well shame. It may well happen. What the blazes are you going to say if the "lone killer" turns out to be TWO killers, working together?
You cannot prove anything. Neither can anyone. That is why this case is unsolved. It should be noted, for the umpteenth time...again..that I AM NOT TRYING to PROVE anything.

The Irish people never even condoned the bombing of mainland targets, where hundreds of innocent people were killed, let alone the slaughter of helpless women by a knife wielding maniac. If the Fenians had been behind the Whitechapel murders then the British Police would not have hidden the fact, they would have made certain that it was splashed across the front pages of every newspaper in the country.

Where is all this nationalism coming from in speeches about CONDONEMENT? I havent mentioned anything about that, let alone attacked any country nor its population in any way. I would NEVER wish to be associated, to any hint of bias against ANY community, race, creed or religion. I find that intolerable, and a totally unacceptable way of living my life.

However, you may as well get used to the fact that IF the killer was a "lone sexual maniac"..he might have been Irish. They are not immune to such people amongst them. There isn't a nation (with the possible exception of Buddhist Tibet) that hasn't got them or had them.

As far as the "splashed across the front of the newspapers " comment you have written is concerned,,, you obviously know less than NOTHING about history, political climates or the running of Governments in the Late Victorian Period, let alone the effect on a pent up, simmering situation that was FEARED (by the ruling classes) to be near anarchy and revolution. (note Trafalgar Square, Nov 1887) Fenianism was very much at the forefront of this fear, because of the Home Rule question, seen as a breakaway from "the Empire" that Victorians held so reverently. The Parnell investigation just around the corner, early 1889, had Anderson's involvement with Le Caron highlighted. Same Anderson, In charge of the Ripper case from Sep 1888.

Normally I write and behave with total respect if I can. However your attitude towards me shows none, as you havent bothered to read the clear meaning of my posting. I suggest you read Late Victorian Political and Social History. I also suggest that both you and I refrain from commenting on each other's future postings, as we are so far apart that it is pointless, and it would be appreciated it if you refrained from replying to this posting of mine.
Enough sox. If you have nothing but criticism to give, without understanding easily understood English, and are just out to attack, do it elsewhere.

You really WON'T ever understand what a POSSIBILITY is unless you understand the background. Which clearly, in this case, you have no concept of.

Phil

[Ally]

There are two things I have noted that have yet to be proven wrong. Those who are the first to sniff and throw their nose in the air about behaving with respect and courtesy are always the ones who lose it with the most hysterical and predictable regularity when their ideas are challenged. And of course they always claim that they believe in courtesy it's just that they were provoked so of course they are excused because they don't have to follow the courtesy they demand of others when they are provoked.

And also too, those demanding respect are usually the ones with some completely wingnut theory that they cannot support at all, and yet the minute someone comes up with an equally wingnut theory, say, pentagrams, you can bet you'll find them there pooh-poohing on the "lack of reason" in such a theory.

The more the usernames change, the more the people are always the same.

[Radical Joe]

Of course, as with any such situation, those of us wishing to remain faithful to our own cause, especially those believing in one lone crazed killer, argue most vehemently against such a plausible idea.



Ego's may suffer. Theories believed in for many years may be burst apart. Disappointment will, no doubt be great. And, no matter how hard the evidence or proof, there will still be those that argue against it.

Some down right stubborn beyond belief and some refuse to bend one iota towards any other point of view. Some will even be horribly offensive and start a witch-hunt like attitude towards an individual or two with something he/she passionately believes in. Sadly, it happens, and it gets us nowhere.

There are others that are prepared to give way. Others that will listen and use time to think about something different. Some may even be swayed enough to become interested. Some may even change their views completely. That is a very grown up thing for die hard people to admit to. And it takes some doing! To be convinced is hard..believe me!

Nice sentiments - shame you couldn't extend the same courtesy to another (new) poster...

Daniel,

OK. I will try this too, and I will do this off the top of my head after 40 years of reading, writing, studying, trawling through book after book, paper after paper, document after document, library after library, having pleaded left right and centre with authority after authority, officious official after officious official, annoyed the blazes out of my friends who wanted me to go down the pub and see a bit more of life, lost countless hours of sleep researching, missed countless meals....ok I will do this too... ONCE.



P olly Nicholls
A nnie Chapman
E lizabeth Stride
C atharine Eddowes
E Lizabeth Fisher (Lizzie Fisher as MJK was ALSO known as)

Peace, man. Does this mean JTR was a Late Victorian Hippie?

All those years.. and I didn't see it. How could I have been so ignorant?

I am not taking the mick. Just an example of doing something I will never try again. At least I have done that too, now, and wasted another 5 minutes of my life. Oh well, could be worse. I could have been a Third Lanark supporter.

best wishes

Phil

PS Welcome Doris. Hope you enjoy the boards here. There are some good people on here mate!

Personally, I find Daniel's theory about as (un)convincing as yours, although at least Daniel hasn't resorted to condemning others as "stubborn beyond belief", "refusing to bend one iota towards any other point of view." Or, indeed, that "some will even be horribly offensive" in his OP, then popping over to someone else's thread and proving himself to be all that he railed against.

Furthermore, at least Daniel didn't resort to building his argument around 'secret files' that we don't even know exist, but surely must exist because they've 'been talked about'.

On the basis of your logic, I'm off to get me the Loch Ness Monster.

[P.M. Boggs]

Hey Daniel!
Like, you really just missed it! Comes from hanging around with dopeheads (i.e. hippies). If you'd been a bit more careful, you would have recognized that it's P(olly), A(nnie), C(atherine), E(lizabeth), M(ary). That spells PACEM, as in "Pacem in Terris" (Peace on Earth). Now let's see who is going to pick up this ball and run with it - right down the rabbit hole (to mix a few metaphors).

[Limehouse]

Well, actually, Polly was not her real name, Polly being a common moniker for those named Mary Anne.

[ianincleveland]

Im not a great expert on JTR by any means but what would Fenians have gained from the slaughter and ripping apart of a few penniless prostitutes especially as MJK from what we been told was Irish?(assuming for now she was murdered by JTR).theres no good publicity in these killings.

Id also hazard a guess if the government/police thought it was the work of Fenians theyd make sure that hit the paper headlines world wide as the murders of some innocent prostitutes would hardly gain much sympathy with anyone.

[Toofew]

Phil, if I am correctly understanding your posts, your theory is that the killer was someone with Fenian ties. Is that it in a nutshell or I have I totally missed the point?

Best of wishes,

Billy

[doris]

I too fail to see how slaughtering whores would help seperatist micks achieve their goals.

doris

[tnb]

Many people will no doubt go 'no no no' when they read this and bang their heads repeatedly against their computer desk - but for reasons I am still looking into, and which are far too longwinded (and generally offtopic) to summarise here, I feel Sgt White is *potentially* key to this whole 'alternative' reading of the murders.

I feel it is too easy to simply dismiss the Stephen White 'sighting' (or at least the story of it) simply because there is no mention of it in the official files and because a couple of details (ie geographically) are off. Obviously that is not everyone's opinion, but this is not the place to discuss that. If that was the only mention of White then I might be more inclined to let it go, but he seems to pop up - seemingly under the radar -more than any other apparently minor officer, and at a number of extremely interesting points in the investigation. Alledgedly Mitre Square, Berner St...it is especially interesting given the backgrounds of the two 'detectives' who seem to have exerted a certain 'influence' on Packer changing his story. And who do we find taking those dubious statements? Sgt Stephen White.

Personally I feel White was more integral to the case than we realise, and potentially knew more than we will ever know. I feel it is precisely the differences in the official accounts of White's activities that may reveal the truth about his role. We have a sighting accredited to him but in a location that doesn't fit with the descriptions of the account - was this perhaps because to reveal the real location of the sighting would reveal the truth about certain surveillance activities (and targets?!). We have an apparently uniformed sergeant operating in plainclothes - as Tom asks, how do we know this was the only such occasion? And then of course we have a mysterious 'City PC' given credit for yet another (???) mysterious sighting...:-)

After all, we have a known 'spymaster' giving the orders in Whitechapel at the time, is it beyond the realms of possibility that he may have recognised the potential in a member of his team or two for a spot of subterfuge?

I have been one of the cynics/ devil's advocates on many of the recent Fenian threads; in part, I was always doing so as I believe a certain number of people need to do so to truly test out any theory, but equally it is only fair to say that I am beginning to come around to your way of thinking Phil. Keep up the good work both. By the way (Tom), this IWMEC police operation is new to me - it may just be me being a relative newcomer, but is there any contemporary info on this to bring me up to speed?

I must admit however that my main problem with the Fenian 'angle' is similar to that of many people on here - what exactly was their aim supposed to be?Would you perhaps like to enlighten us with an educated guess Phil? Even just a working supposition?

[spyglass]

In Mike Warrens chapter "THE GREAT CONSPIRACY" in THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF JACK THE RIPPER", he seems to point at possibly that MJK was a police imformer or more, especially when you take into consideration the vagueness surrounding her identity, her past, no family coming forward or traced after her death.
MJK remained a mystery during and after death, and remember that not everyone excepts all murders were done by the same hand. Very possibly MJK was completly seperate from the other victims. And there is also the argument that it was'nt MJK found murderded at Millers court.
Ofcourse there is no proof of any of this, its just another of many theorys, but isnt that what most of JTR is???

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

So that there (hopefully) won't be any more misunderstandings on this thread, and to answer a lot of those misunderstandings...

From post Nr. 3

1.

Anderson's heavy involvement with the anti-Fenian cause, the bringing in of policemen aquainted with the anti-Fenian cause, both locally and from as far away as Dublin, from various departments and of various rank, specifically for use in the JTR case, the seemingly great amount of Irish connectionsboth within the police force and the victims lives and aquaintances and families themselves....

and further

There is no doubt in my mind at this present moment in time, that the manoveuring into Whitechapel of a considerable police force, around the International Working Mans Club, which did not just consist of the Jewish man and woman, but anarchists and troublemakers from different clans and groups and nationalities, is a central point that has something to do with these killings. To imagine that two different immensely important police operations are happening quite separate from each other, within such a small area, is, in my honest opinion, naive.

From post No.8

2.

....a file in the SD/CID files entitled "The Whitechapel murders" INDICATES, because of WHERE it is, that there exists something relating to national threat suspicions.
Files in the CID are there because of exactly that. And the Fenians WERE regarded as a National threat.

From post Nr.9

3.

If the Whitechapel Murderers have their OWN file amongst the SD Files, that can ONLY mean that something within them was considered a national threat. Otherwise they would NOT be in there at all. It is highly unlkely that any of the named suspects were considered a threat to the Monarchy and the Crown.
So something MUST, by sheer definition, be connected to something undercover. Those files are kept in perpituity. There is NO good reason why they should STILL be kept secret, for if the "threat" from 1888 is STILL a possibility, then it must have been much much worse than we can imagine.

Alternatively, the answer given to the files being kept under lock and key are the names in the files and the effect on those people's families then and now.
I'm sorry, but it is totally naive to believe that any name in those files would have any damaging effect on todays relatives, 4 or 5 generations down the line... UNLESS...
the VICTIMS themselves were part of or used in undercover operations.

From post Nr 13.

4.

Those who are interested in Fleming, and Hutchinson, I also applaud. There are avenues we need to look down. Thoroughly. Other avenues also INCLUDE a Fenian link. It includes the CID. It includes DISINFORMATION and it includes the simple fact that TWO major operations happening at the same time in the same tiny area, involving an influx of SPECIALIST policemen... which MUST, in my logical, rational mind, have some connection with each other.

From post No.

5.

The authorities thought something very dangerous was happening in Whitechapel. Robert Anderson was at the centre of the policing of all of this. He was indeed the spymaster. And that CANNOT be emphasised enough either.

From post No.21

I myself, am of the opinion that many of the missing papers from the original files that went missing from an early point after the murders, may well be in there, because of the connection to the CID and the work they were doing. Also, any connections to anarchy, radicals and Fenianism, possibly a file on Tumblety should he have been suspected of any Fenian connection.

From post No. 23

6.

And the same goes for Anderson, who said as much when he mentioned his immortal line "...the traditions of his old department..."
I interpret that as "..I could tell more, but CID stuff is traditionally kept quiet".

I don't use, nor like the word conspiracy. I prefer to call this a smokescreen.
With Robert Anderson, spymaster, and CID head in charge of the Whitchapel murder case, it is not unreasonable to surmise that he used CID tactics during his time involved with the case. CID tactics are certainly on a need to know basis, and the fewer the better.

From Post No. 29

7.

Evening News 1st Oct 1920. The newspaper stated that he (Coroner Wynne Baxter) attributed these crimes to the Fenians. "Dr. Baxter advanced his theory to the Home Office, who told him he was not alone in his opinion."

This was repeated in Douglas Browne's book, The Rise of Scotland Yard. (1956)
"Sir Melville MacNaughten appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assasinate Mr.Balfour at the Irish Office."

From post No. 38 (DVV)

8.

Phil tries to understand why the police opinions are so....so....so.....
Without preconceived ideas.

From post No. 39

9.

Anderson's CID may well have used this series of murders, whilst it was all going on, to do his other business in the area. Anti-Fenianism.

From post No. 44

10.

With thanks to Tom Westcott, I quote him having written the following in the past....

I can guarantee there are many extant files under the names of various individuals that would contain notes and materials of much interest to us. The Tumblety file that's sure to exist in Special Branch, for instance.

and further

Now, IF that file on Tumblety exists, we already know he has Irish connections. Is it possible to connect Tumblety to Fenianism? Littlechild's comments ARE important. He was high up in the Secret Department. The same Secret Department that houses files on the Fenian problems from the time.

and further

It seems, for some reason, that Wynne Baxter's comment to the Home Office has been ignored or overlooked by researchers and historians since it was made known. As indeed has the Home Office reply, and Macnaghten's comment.
It has previously been suggested on these boards before that the Eddowes murder could be connected to her being one of Jenkinson's "girls", on the ground infiltrating Fenianism. I do not in any way say this is so.. but an intruiging thought. We know that women were used in undercover work.

and further

It is my belief the theories by these top policemen... Anderson, MacNaughten et al, about Druitt, Polish Jew, etc etc were red herrings... and those red herrings are STILL being believed, 122 years later. Confuse and counter confuse. It has certainly worked! All said without one iota of proof.

From Post No.46

11.

THE CID and SD were all over the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper case, with CID detectives working left right and centre on it.... WHERE WOULD THE SD DETECTIVES' REPORTS AND OBSERVATIONS BE? IN THE SD FILES PERCHANCE? SD SUSPECTS? Reports on them ? Including Tumblety by the way, as has been previously mentioned. BY OTHER researchers.

and further

FURTHERING THE CAUSE OF IRISH NATIONALISM AND BUTCHERING HARMLESS WOMEN IS NOT THE POINT!!!!!!

It is a about counter espionage, arranged by the spymaster Anderson, using the murders as a bckground for his Anti-Fenianism. Therefore the inbflux of the special police, therefore the amount of SD in the area, therefore it is about WHY Anderson did what he did.

I have NOT, and I will repeat this, I have NOT said that the murderer was a Fenian, nor part of a Fenian plot. I hope I make myself perfectly clear.
He could have been...he may not have been..but that ISNT THE POINT.

It was MACNAUGHTEN that suggested that, also WYNNE BAXTER suggested a Fenian connection to the murders.
I have only said these things need investigating thoroughly.

It is the actions of the POLICE I raise HUGE question marks over in all of this.
ANDERSON especially.

tnb, spyglass Thank you, you have understood.

Now hopefully with the above quotes from my own posts (except one, DVV), it should be perfectly clear that the BACKDROUND is the important thing in this thread, the police position, evidence and LINKS to Fenianism.

And that is NOT sensationalistic, accusational nor crazy. It shows a FEASBLE BACKGROUND LINK.

best wishes

Phil

[tnb]

Background is indeed the key word. I am glad to hear you state once and for all Phil that you are not suggesting some grand conspiracy. It would undermine some excellent research and very interesting questions to have any suggestion of doing so. Hopefully this thread can progress from here.

Just a thought - and please no-one take this TOO seriously - but how dramatic (politically, I mean) do we think an investigation would have to be to be worth holding back evidence around a number of brutal murders (and I say 'a number' very carefully, as in 'a number anywhere between one and five, or even more')? To put it more simply, if Anderson et al had evidence that could have led them to the WM, or at least MJK's killer, but revealing it in court would have revealed other, more nefarious, activities, do we think they may have decided to save their own skins?

It certainly would have made those 'in the know' very jumpy when they realised how the publicity around the murders (which they hardly could have foreseen) was not going away. Perhaps jumpy enough to lock the unpalatable truths up in a special branch file....?

[curious]

Please address this point:

Hi, Phil,
From your Point No. 3:
"It is totally naive to believe that any name in those files would have any damaging effect on todays relatives, 4 or 5 generations down the line... UNLESS...
the VICTIMS themselves were part of or used in undercover operations.


How would anything change if the VICTIMS themselves were part of or were used in undercover operations?

Would you please explore this further?

Thanks,

curious

[Phil Carter]

Hello Curious,

To answer your question.. in that same posting I wrote..

THEN IT WOULD HAVE TO BE KEPT QUIET...because..

If THAT were the case, Robert Anderson, Henry Matthews, Charles Warren, Prime Minister Salisbury and many others could be deemed to be complicit in some serious acts of crime.....
....and if THAT was the case...well, I leave you to ponder the implications AT THE TIME of this getting out.

There are living relatives today, of those victims, traced by fine, diligent researchers.
Perhaps THEY, the family, would have some serious questions to ask, would they not?
If it were me, I would accept the "work" they did, but I would certainly ask questions as to WHY the whole thing was covered up in the first place.

In much the same way, I imagine, that the relatives of David Kelly today are asking much the same question of THIS apparent cover up..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245599/David-Kelly-post-mortem-kept-secret-70-years-doctors-accuse-Lord-Hutton-concealing-vital-information.html

So those of you who do not believe in smokescreens. I urge you to think again. This isn't a "one off"... the "Bowes -Lyon sisters" is a classic example. Raul Wallenberg is another. There are many.
Because in some circles, at various times over the years, SADLY, it happens.

Those are facts.

best wishes

Phil

[curious]

This is such a litigious society (at least in America), is it possible descendants could/would sue for damages?

or would it just be a scandal? which, at this point in time, a scandal would not really affect much since everyone is dead and can not be embarrassed.

I see no point in things continuing to be kept secret.

I can see how two cases, overlapping in such a small area, could possibly tangle.

I can also see that files belonging to the secret arm/employees of the investigation being kept secret -- to no advantage perhaps, but out of "tradition."

To me, that seems a reasonable explanation for the spotiness of the information that is publically available.

Does it to anyone else?

curious