Whether we like it or not

[harry]

Phil,
Someone,if not you,will have to provide some evidence of Fenian involvement,if your writings are to bear fruit.This is all Marlowe is insinuating,and I agree with him.While there can be no objection that violence was a part of the Fenian's commitment,I find it hard to understand how the Whitechapel murders could further it's aims.Still best of luck,though as I was once told,there is no such thing as luck,there is only good judgement and bad judgement.
Regards.

[DVV]

Bye Phil,

Oh and say hi to Perrymason...

Fare you well Marlowe.

And, oh, shut your tiny mouth.

Amitiés,
David

edit : whether you like it or not.

[DVV]

Hi Phil,

Anderson, the spy, was in the best position to know if the Fenians were involved or not. Baxter's opinions are meaningless and not the least bit surprising. And they sure do not constitute evidence of any kind.

So, first you would have to prove a cover-up involving Anderson and then explain why the Fenians would commit such murders. Is this going to happen soon? Probably not.

Now, a Fenian who was a Druid, that might work :-) Tumblety was sort of a witch...

Marlowe

Hi Marlowe,

have you understood what is this thread about ?
No.

Take my advice and come back to post #3.

Amitiés,
David

[Marlowe]

Bye Phil,

Oh and say hi to Perrymason...

[Phil Carter]

Marlowe,

I do not HAVE to PROVE anything. Especially to the likes of you.
AS you are obviously such a genius (with comments like Druid, and witch.. it shows how brilliant, and serious you are), I suggest you go somewhere else and annoy others, which seems to be your bent...as your previous postings have done exactly the same against other people before me.

Phil

[Marlowe]

Hi Phil,

Anderson, the spy, was in the best position to know if the Fenians were involved or not. Baxter's opinions are meaningless and not the least bit surprising. And they sure do not constitute evidence of any kind.

So, first you would have to prove a cover-up involving Anderson and then explain why the Fenians would commit such murders. Is this going to happen soon? Probably not.

Now, a Fenian who was a Druid, that might work :-) Tumblety was sort of a witch...

Marlowe

[Natalie Severn]

There was no evidence of Fenians being involved or Anarchists.But clearly for some policemen who hadnt been on a beat ever,men like Macnaghten and Anderson are good examples of such,certain groups of people probably frightened them a bit,secretly.The Fenians probably frightened Macnaghten,with their bomb planting etc and so they became his particular bogey man.
For Anderson,it was the newly arrived immigrants from Eastern Europe with their differing languages and to his mind strange customs,that probably scared him ,so the poor Polish Jews of Whitechapel became for him a sort of scapegoat, who he could throw all his scared thoughts about aliens at.
Its sad really.
I must say men like Inspector Abberline seemed a lot more in touch with real people.You dont hear about Abberline having problems about the people who populated Whitechapel,unless they really were bombers or criminals.

[protohistorian]

I am a bit behind on all this and a have a lot of catching up to do, but can someone answer the following for me please.
1. This so called file locked away in CID, how sure of its existence are we, I can only vaguely recall hearing about it from S. Evans I think some time ago.

2. Who at this time would be aloud to see it, the Queen...the Prime minister ??

3. If all this was true, is it likely that certain imformation at the crime scenes were withheld. I refere mainly to the room of MJK.

We need to be very careful here. It is abundantly clear that contemporary investigators could not divorce the crimes we study from their culturally bound interpretations. As an example, the ripper was likely as Jew, socialist, or both. Fenian's, as a culturally bound bogeyman, are likely to be no more than a remnant of investigator bias. By all means investigate, but be wary. Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

I did not make this up. The comment is from the Evening News 1st Oct 1920. The newspaper stated that he (Coroner Wynne Baxter) attributed these crimes to the Fenians. "Dr. Baxter advanced his theory to the Home Office, who told him he was not alone in his opinion."

This was repeated in Douglas Browne's book, The Rise of Scotland Yard. (1956)
"Sir Melville MacNaughten appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assasinate Mr.Balfour at the Irish Office."

best wishes

Phil

[Marlowe]

Hi Phil,

In other words, you don't have any evidence to suggest that the Fenians, as an organization, had anything to do with the killing of any women.

That's all I was asking. Thank you.

Marlowe

[Phil Carter]

The SD/CID FIles

Hi Phil

Nice stuff you're writing here.

I believe that all secret information regarding murders related to the 'Irish Question' then and now is buried in the files forever, in perpetuity as they say, to avoid family vendettas. No poncey 100 year rule on this one.

Correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong on this.

Hello Stephen,

Thank you for your kind comments. Please excuse the late reply.

As far as I am aware, all the SD/CID Files are, indeed closed in perpetuity. That these files could cause a family vendetta, is to my mind, after 122 years, a non runner. 5 generations down the line, and with the official IRA now disbanded, I wonder indeed what negative effect the opening of these files would have. Perhaps the current Home Secretary could explain such a reason.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Marlowe,

Thank you for your reply.

If you had read what I have written you will notice that I have said that there is, imho a Fenian CONNECTION to these murders. I have NOT stated anything about how many women were "killed by the Fenians". I respectfully ask you to re read my previous post, including what was the opening posting that started this thread, that became posting No.3 because of last night's trouble with the "bump" on the entire site.

I have not mentioned your assumption of "terrorist killers" either. Neither have I mentioned anything connected to anyone trying to "undermine the Republican cause". This is your interpretation.

If you read what I have written, I have mentioned a lot of factual background material, which I believe should be carefully considered. I also said, IF you had read my posting, that I am in NO WAY asserting it IS the answer. I merely pointed out that it should be thoroughly investigated.

The old presumption, gone through a thousands times and back, that a lone mad killer based on the 3 or 4 MacNaughten/Anderson mentioned names, has worn thin. Every single attempt to say that such is the case, with whoever, has got us, to this moment in time, nowhere.

However there are people involved in Ripperology who are researching individuals that I do warmly applaud, as the individuals concerned, Hutchinson and Fleming, for example, are of interest. or SHOULD be of interest, to us all. And, as I wrote before, the same should be said of any Fenian connection. There are, infact, some doing exactly that.

best wishes

Phil

[Marlowe]

Hello, Phil

Ok, so the Fenians killed how many women, 1 ,2 3...14?

And the motive for killing them was what, exactly?

And I am expected to believe that British spies and the police were trying to divert attention away from the Irish "terrorist" killers, rather than use the murders to undermine the Republican Cause? Is that correct?

Gee, give the Brits a little credit -- the ones I dealt with had way more "intelligence" than that :-)

You're going to need something really good to overcome such weaknesses. But do you?

Marlowe

[spyglass]

PHill,
Once again thank you for your very intresting, imformative and well written input, you certainly have me hooked. Indeed "a very hot potato"

[Phil Carter]

Hello Spyglass,

Thank you for your reply.

A few people have been quick to shout the word "another conspiracy theory" at the Fenian connection, comparing it to the Royalty (Prince Albert Victor) theory and The Sickert theory etc etc.
I do not believe that Douglas Browne would have mentioned what he did unless he had access to papers we have not seen, as he indeed indicated in his book. As MacNaughten never mentioned Fenianism at the time, it becomes all the more likely that his little list was indeed a red herring. Anything to take the attention away from anything near the truth, or away from anything re CID work. And the same goes for Anderson, who said as much when he mentioned his immortal line "...the traditions of his old department..."
I interpret that as "..I could tell more, but CID stuff is traditionally kept quiet".

I don't use, not like the word conspiracy. I prefer to call this a smokescreen.
With Robert Anderson, spymaster, and CID head in charge of the Whitchapel murder case, it is not unreasonable to surmise that he used CID tactics during his time involved with the case. CID tactics are certainly on a need to know basis, and the fewer the better.


122 years on. The SD/CID files...What's the big secret?

best wishes

Phil