Whether we like it or not

[Sox]

It seems to me that in order to do find an answer, we MUST move on and embrace alternatives previously pooh-poohed by those who whom have deemed to do so in the past

Hi Phil, you speak of a 'logical, rational mind' but I am not seeing much of that in evidence here. One hundred and twenty two years after the fact it is almost impossible to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that 'Mr X' was Jack the Ripper. But the reason that nobody can do this, really does not mean that it is because someone in 1888 was covering something up.

It could, quite easily, mean that the police in 1888 did not have the evidence needed to convict a particular suspect. That is the logical and rational answer. Without the suspects file, all of this is really just guesswork.

As you are well aware, over the years the myriad books on this case have taken readers further and further away from the actual murders themselves, and now we have the Fenians looming on the horizon. I would respectfully suggest that all the evidence needed is in the autopsy reports, not in any 'secret' files. We have had many crimes of this type since 1888, and with the benefit of all that hindsight, can there really be any question that this was a sexual serial killer?

In my logical and rational mind, there cannot. Good luck with whatever research you do, but I really cannot see it leading to the Whitechapel murderer.

[Limehouse]

Hi Phil,

A brilliant, and very thought-provoking post.

I don't have any answers, I'm afraid, but I do have a few ideas that i will throw in for consideration. They are just random thoughts really, but perhaps someone will catch one and run with it.

1) The police force at the time seem, to me, to be poory trained. Probably the men on the ground were as good as they could be, with good local knowledge and some connections with 'leaders' in the community who would work with them. However, with the exception of Abberline and men of his rank, the rest seemed to have thrashed around ineffectually and made rash decisions that hampered the investigation. I feel that this factor may have influenced the way they aopproached the investigation. For example, although violence was no stranger to the area, and particularly domestic violence, the deaths of these women in such a short space of time, coupled with the manner in which they were 'displayed' must have seemed an open challenge to the so-called morals of the time and may have been seen in the same way as the political challenge offered by the Fenians.

2) It is said that you are only a few connections away from a complete stranger (ie, dig deep enough and you will find a stranger on a bus or in a pub has a friend/familymember/experience in common with you. In an area like this part of the east end, which some people never left - except perhaps for a day trip to Epping Forest or a working 'holiday' hop picking, there must have been connections between people that only became known after events such as these killings.

3) It is absolutely true that there was a lot of political 'planning' - for want of a better word - going on in Londion at that time. It is sad that the greater part of the Russian Revolution was planned in the east end and there was certainly Fenian activity against the State. At the same time, there was tension between the working classes and those responsibile for controlling them (note the Battle of Trafalgar Square, December 1887) and there were people in somewhat more comfortable circumstances who wanted a socialist state (but some of them did not want to include the lower orders of the working classes whom they deemed congenitally defective). So, there were many people who seemed to pose a threat to the establishment and to the empire and it was all this that the top policemen had to face and deal with.

4) During the Yorkshire Ripper murders in the 1970s, similar social and political conditions (relatively speaking) prevailed and there was a certain amount of anger aimed at the police and the authorities. However, having a better understanding of this type of murder, no connections were made between the murders and the political landscape.

5) To quote your point: Douglas Browne in 1956 apparently read documents we have never seen, one stating that Macnaughten saw a link between the killings and the leader of the Fenian plot to kill Balfour.
I think Mcnaughten is an unrealiable witness in these events. His notes re the 'more likely suspects than Cutbush' were riddled with errors and, like many of his class and time, he believed a man could become insane 'due to many years indulgence in solitary vices'. If Mcnaughten really did see a link between the killings and the Fenians, why did he suggest so strongly that Druitt was the killer? Did Druitt have connections to the Fenians?

Having made of of these points, it is entirely possible that there WAS a link, because the killer could have been an activist who was a sexually sadistic pervert but who also wanted to direct his anger at the state and if he saw the reaction his early killings provoked, he could have prevailed in the revolting manner that he did to bring down the state.

[Limehouse]

Hi Phil,

A brilliant, and very thought-provoking post.

I don't have any answers, I'm afraid, but I do have a few ideas that i will throw in for consideration. They are just random thoughts really, but perhaps someone will catch one and run with it.

1) The police force at the time seem, to me, to be poory trained. Probably the men on the ground were as good as they could be, with good local knowledge and some connections with 'leaders' in the community who would work with them. However, with the exception of Abberline and men of his rank, the rest seemed to have thrashed around ineffectually and made rash decisions that hampered the investigation. I feel that this factor may have influenced the way they aopproached the investigation. For example, although violence was no stranger to the area, and particularly domestic violence, the deaths of these women in such a short space of time, coupled with the manner in which they were 'displayed' must have seemed an open challenge to the so-called morals of the time and may have been seen in the same way as the political challenge offered by the Fenians.

2) It is said that you are only a few connections away from a complete stranger (ie, dig deep enough and you will find a stranger on a bus or in a pub has a friend/familymember/experience in common with you. In an area like this part of the east end, which some people never left - except perhaps for a day trip to Epping Forest or a working 'holiday' hop picking, there must have been connections between people that only became known after events such as these killings.

3) It is absolutely true that there was a lot of political 'planning' - for want of a better word - going on in Londion at that time. It is sad that the greater part of the Russian Revolution was planned in the east end and there was certainly Fenian activity against the State. At the same time, there was tension between the working classes and those responsibile for controlling them (note the Battle of Trafalgar Square, December 1887) and there were people in somewhat more comfortable circumstances who wanted a socialist state (but some of them did not want to include the lower orders of the working classes whom they deemed congenitally defective). So, there were many people who seemed to pose a threat to the establishment and to the empire and it was all this that the top policemen had to face and deal with.

4) During the Yorkshire Ripper murders in the 1970s, similar social and political conditions (relatively speaking) prevailed and there was a certain amount of anger aimed at the police and the authorities. However, having a better understanding of this type of murder, no connections were made between the murders and the political landscape.

5) To quote your point: Douglas Browne in 1956 apparently read documents we have never seen, one stating that Macnaughten saw a link between the killings and the leader of the Fenian plot to kill Balfour.
I think Mcnaughten is an unrealiable witness in these events. His notes re the 'more likely suspects than Cutbush' were riddled with errors and, like many of his class and time, he believed a man could become insane 'due to many years indulgence in solitary vices'. If Mcnaughten really did see a link between the killings and the Fenians, why did he suggest so strongly that Druitt was the killer? Did Druitt have connections to the Fenians?

Having made of of these points, it is entirely possible that there WAS a link, because the killer could have been an activist who was a sexually sadistic pervert but who also wanted to direct his anger at the state and if he saw the reaction his early killings provoked, he could have prevailed in the revolting manner that he did to bring down the state.

[spyglass]

Hi all !
I have been one of those recently asking questions on this forum about possible links between JTR and the Feiniens.
I have had a long lay off from studying JTR and only recently got back to it, and I am amazed on how much I had forgotten and how fast things have moved on with what seems a new suspect named every week, and if you have read any of my links you are bound to spot some mistakes.
However I am always willing to be corrected and to learn.
When recently reading THE MAMOTH BOOK OF JTR, I was struck by the chapter written by M.WARREN on his feinien link theory, thus leading me to read up on the Pheonix Park Murders. I still think it an excellent theory, but will always keep an open mind.
But how seriously do Ripper Historian's take this theory? and since Warrens chapter, has anyone else delved into it deeper and found anymore intresting links or clues.?

[Phil Carter]

Stehen, Hunter,

Many thanks for your replies and support.

As I have said... what's the point in these files being kept secret after 122 years? There is NO logical answer to it.
Family vendettas? Well, all I can say to that is that the IRA have officially disanded. Everyone has moved on, bar a few out oin the fringe.

best wishes

Phil

[Stephen Thomas]

As I see it, ANY mention, publically, of Fenian involvement was kept very quiet for a reason. The total loss of control the news would produce.

It must also be remembered that the SD or CID files on the case are STILL closed, after 122 years. There is apparently a file in that lot entitled "The Whitechapel Murders".

Now I don't know about you, but that raises one alarmingly serious question.

If the Whitechapel Murderers have their OWN file amongst the SD Files, that can ONLY mean that something within them was considered a national threat. Otherwise they would NOT be in there at all. It is highly unlkely that any of the named suspects were considered a threat to the Monarchy and the Crown.
So something MUST, by sheer definition, be connected to something undercover. Those files are kept in perpituity. There is NO good reason why they should STILL be kept secret, for if the "threat" from 1888 is STILL a possibility, then it must have been much much worse than we can imagine.

Hi Phil

Nice stuff you're writing here.

I believe that all secret information regarding murders related to the 'Irish Question' then and now is buried in the files forever, in perpetuity as they say, to avoid family vendettas. No poncey 100 year rule on this one.

Correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong on this.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Over the last 4 months or so, there have been various threads both touching upon, and indeed pointing towards, the involvement of Fenians in the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper murders.

Anderson's heavy involvement with the anti-Fenian cause, the bringing in of policemen aquainted with the anti-Fenian cause, both locally and from as far away as Dublin, from various departments and of various rank, specifically for use in the JTR case, the seemingly great amount of Irish connectionsboth within the police force and the victims lives and aquaintances and families themselves, together with the comments of officials central to the happenings in Whitechapel, have all lead to varying degrees of conclusion, ranging from the "pure coincidence" to the "certain tying together" of Fenianism and Jack the Ripper/Whitechapel murderer.

Of course, as with any such situation, those of us wishing to remain faithful to our own cause, especially those believing in one lone crazed killer, argue most vehemently against such a plausible idea. That is understandable. To counter this argument, it has been pointed out that in 122 years of research and historical examination of the case, we are all exactly where we stood at the beginning. Nowhere, without an answer.

The neutral man will argue that in all probability the answer will probably never be found. There are those who actually don't want the answer found, for varying reasons...some personal, some, even of a fashion akin to "spoiling the story".
The response to this last charge is that we must always remember that this wasn't a story. There wasn't a happy ending and nobody lived happily ever after. This was a brutal, nasty, disgusting and horrific series of murders in a relatively small area that frightened the life out of the local population at the time, and affected many for the rest of their lives in one way or another.

It is our charge to try our best to find the answer to these appalling crimes. It doesn't matter WHO finds the answer. It doesn't matter WHO is right or wrong. Whether Kosminski, Druitt, a Fenian or two or three, a mad doctor, a surgeon, a mad Prince and his best mate, a sick painter, an American quack or Humpty Bloody Dumpty was the person(s) responsible. Whichever camp one sits within, it is our duty to try and get the answer if we possibly can. Ego's may suffer. Theories believed in for many years may be burst apart. Disappointment will, no doubt be great. And, no matter how hard the evidence or proof, there will still be those that argue against it.

Some of us are more enthusiastic than others. Some are more demonstrative. Some more argumentative. Some, more passionate to the cause. Some down right stubborn beyond belief and some refuse to bend one iota towards any other point of view. Some will even be horribly offensive and start a witch-hunt like attitude towards an individual or two with something he/she passionately believes in. Sadly, it happens, and it gets us nowhere.

There are others that are prepared to give way. Others that will listen and use time to think about something different. Some may even be swayed enough to become interested. Some may even change their views completely. That is a very grown up thing for die hard people to admit to. And it takes some doing! To be convinced is hard..believe me!

From this lay-man's standpoint, I am becoming more and more convinced that something happened 122 years ago that has never been explained, and was only privvy to a few. Because the complications in this whole case are so great, no easy answer has ever been found, whatever stone has been turned in the hunt for the killer.

There is no doubt in my mind at this present moment in time, that the manoveuring into Whitechapel of a considerable police force, around the International Working Mans Club, which did not just consist of the Jewish man and woman, but anarchists and troublemakers from different clans and groups and nationalities, is a central point that has something to do with these killings. To imagine that two different immensely important police operations are happening quite separate from each other, within such a small area, is, in my honest opinion, naive.
Therefore I propose that expanding one's mind a little to allow this possibility to sink in, allow it to be properly investigated and researched, without predjudice if possible, is essential... because after 122 years, we have no answer using the old known possibilities....they have been used up.

The social and political ambience of the area had reached an uneasy boiling point. Poverty was rife, anarchy was very much in the wind. On a far greater level, but also locally, Home Rule for Ireland was THE political topic on most politicians lips, closely followed by fear of revolution, and the ever self concious Victorian hierarchy totally scared of the crown in danger of toppling, let alone the Empire. The police were seen to be useless in their attempts at quelling the disquietening atmosphere, and politicians were seemingly useless, in the lower class eye, of understanding their needs.

Something very scary happened in Whitechapel in 1888. The whole world watched it develop. As each murder occured, the feeling of tension became one of sheer fear. Caught in the very core of all this, were the common-all-garden men and women, husbands and wives and their children... families, living in a poor area, some living in abject poverty. All the time, the Home Office and the Metropolitan and City police forces were semingly not working in unison. Politically, within the case itself, Commissioner Warren was being thwarted in trying to do his job by both Matthews and Anderson. The City police and the Met police were at odds, and some individuals, divided before by boundaries, became divided by the way they were led.

Coroners made glaring errors, and doctors disagreed with each other. Differing opinions ran rife through just about every section of the authorities concerned with the case.
Neighbour accused neighbour of being the "Ripper", husbands were even accused by wives in court cases of being "Jack"..and all this was fuelled by newspapers goading the public, the police and the politicians causing an atmosphere of frenzy. Letters, mostly hoaxed it was believed, were recieved by the bucketful, and newspapers even printed some, or their wording. Causing...

Sheer unadulterated fear.

Whether we like it or not, the above happened. And we need to seriously understand WHY the background to these murders affected the situation.
Ignoring it by calling it sensationalistic, is, in my honest opinion, tantamount to burying one's head in the sand, a "fingers in the ears syndrome".. whilst singing la la la la la....

Douglas Browne in 1956 apparently read documents we have never seen, one stating that Macnaughten saw a link between the killings and the leader of the Fenian plot to kill Balfour. That, in itself, should tell us all that it is certainly a possibility, if not an Anderson-like "def ascertained fact".

I welcome responses and comments, thoughts and ideas.

with best wishes, as always, to all

Phil