Whether we like it or not

[spyglass]

HI Phill.
Many thanks for that, I find this angle on the case very fasinating and intresting, I just find it a bit srange that apart from Mike Warren with his entry in THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF JTR on this line, that no other leading Ripper historians and authors have made more of it, unless I have missed a book or two.

[Phil Carter]

Hello spyglass,

Welcome to the boards, a little late, but welcome none the less.
Thank you for your reply.

The existance of a file labled "The Whitechapel murders", within the SD/CID files, has been talked of for a long time. Nobody will confirm it's existance, because of the simple reason that if anybody has been privvy to that information for certain, questions will be asked on how such information was obtained by the individual. Therefore nobody will admit to having seen this supposed file, nor it's cover.
The contents of the file have, as far as I am aware, never been seen by any living author, researcher or historian.

Who would be allowed to see it is a political question first and foremost.
The Home Secretary, Prime Minister and Head of the CID would certainly be in consultation on any such decision. Whether it would mean involvement of the Crown, I do not know. Possibly, under certain circumstances.

What is within these files is a mystery itself. Much speculation has been bandied about on this very subject. I myself, am of the opinion that many of the missing papers from the original files that went missing from an early point after the murders, may well be in there, because of the connection to the CID and the work they were doing. Also, any connections to anarchy, radicals and Fenianism, possibly a file on Tumblety should he have been suspected of any Fenian connection.
The Irish connections with this case are numerous to say the least, so it is not unfeasable that those connections, including MJK and Miller's Court, are held within the SD/CID files.

One can only hope that THESE files have not been purloined, and they have actually been left in peace.

122 years on.. The SD/CID files... Why the big secret?

best wishes

Phil

[spyglass]

I am a bit behind on all this and a have a lot of catching up to do, but can someone answer the following for me please.
1. This so called file locked away in CID, how sure of its existence are we, I can only vaguely recall hearing about it from S. Evans I think some time ago.

2. Who at this time would be aloud to see it, the Queen...the Prime minister ??

3. If all this was true, is it likely that certain imformation at the crime scenes were withheld. I refere mainly to the room of MJK.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Hunter,

Thank you for your reply.
The issue of the release of files is a thorny one over here. The trouble lies in the word Fenianism. However, it is my belief that the files should be released now on grounds of time, as witholding these files serve no real purpose.
The family feuds and vengeance arguement, recrimination etc, hold no water from 122 years ago. It si 4 or 5 generations ago.
However, I fear that the only way to get somewhere on this issue is to lobby for a change of attitude, as you suggest.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Limehouse,

Yes, It could well be that they were looking at Tumblety in that sense. The influx of American Fenians into London is well known. American doctors with Fenian links also.
Looking into Fenianism, and the machinations going on behind the scenes from Clan leaders, with the whipping up of sympathisers to raise money in the USA, one can see the gradual and ever deepening problem arising, politically, for the politicians and police in Britain.

This wasn't new. It had been going on for over thirty years. The plots to kill Balfour (there were several), and the deep awareness of Anderson's anti-Fenian activity, combined with the anti-Fenian police prescence in the area, the KNOWN use of women as anti-Fenian grasses in the area(Jenkinson introduced the idea) all contribute to a scenario which happened to be in and around Whitechapel at the time of the Jack the Ripper/Whitechapel murders.
It is not, therefore, in any way unreasonable to see that these two happenings were entwined. The mere introduction of specialist anti-Fenian policemen into the MURDER case, is a clear indication of this.

The background I wrote about earlier is of the highest importance. and it really cannot be over emphasised, this was NOT a story. It was real life terror. It caused real life fear. And the politicians exhumed real life panic because of the thought of anarchy, revolution and chaos.

The authorities thought something very dangerous was happening in Whitechapel. Robert Anderson was at the centre of the policing of all of this. He was indeed the spymaster. And that CANNOT be emphasised enough either. He had more fingers in more pies than most Jack the Ripper enthusuasts know about. And this was the man in charge of the CID. He disliked Commissioner Warren, and hindered Warren whenever he could. (In tandem with Matthews at the Home Office).

I have said for a long, long time, that there isnt any sense in these killings. Too many ends that don't match, let alone tie up. I have the distinct feeling that files that were purloined of information are important NOT because they reveal who JTR was, but because they actually cover the holes in the case.
And I believe those holes indicate a CID activity that emphasises even more the entwinment of the two cases.
Why else would the CID have a file on the Whitechapel murders? The mere prescence in the SD/CID files indicate one thing only. A threat to National Security. And the SD was set up for one reason only. Fenianism.

If Tumblety was suspected of Fenianism, there could well be papers on him in those files too. It would not surprise me in the least.

As I said. After 122 years....The SD/CID files...why the big secret?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

Nope, not a conspiracy. I don't think MacNaughten would suggest a conspiracy.
Nor Wynne Baxter.

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

All sounds like bubbling conspiracy theory to me. And I’ve never come across one that wasn’t a house of cards.

Not that the background colour isnt interesting.

But the simple answer is a lone serial killer.

Pirate

[Limehouse]

Perhaps the Fenian link was made after the police were pointed in Tumblety's direction as I believe he was suspected of having Fenian connections?

[Hunter]

Hi Phil,

Here in the U.S. in recent years, laws were passed to gain public access to previously "secret files"( sunshine laws- etc). This was largely due to the questions surrounding the Kennedy assasination and events during the cold war. It was started at the grass roots and got the involvement of legislators. Perhaps an effort in Britain for the CID files could get the "perpetuity" law, if that's what it is, changed.

I'vr been a student of this case a long time and I do believe there are dilligent people here that have worked hard for years to gather information and find answers to this 122 year old mystery- most of the time at their own expense. It may just be that an unknown killer rampaged through Whitechapel in the fall of 1888 and no one really had a clue to who he was. It may be that Anderson and others used the murders to place more law enforcement in the area to go after the "subversive" elements operating in that area at that time. It may be something else but maybe its time for a grass roots effort expanded beyond "Ripperologist" to get the politicians, as we did in the U.S., to give public access to files now closed.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

Thank you for your reply.
I am open minded enough to be able to completely back down on any idea, and embrace another..IF, (and it is at this moment in time) I can see an alternative that DOESN'T become a re-hash of older, worn out arguments. Those arguments you mentioned, are, to my mind, used up. There would have to be something pretty incriminating to come along to convince me that Kosminski/Druitt/Polish Jew was the answer.
In the same way I applauded the announcement of Tumblety, he was, and at this moment in time has been, a "near, but not near enough" candidate.
Should the CID files also raise his name a MAJOR suspect, with information we know nothing about, then he too will be heartily reconsidered.

Dogmatic I am not, and would welcome ANY answer to all of this, as I wrote earlier in the thread, it DOESN'T MATTER who gets the answer to the puzzle, or WHO the murderer(s) is/are. It seems to me that in order to do find an answer, we MUST move on and embrace alternatives previously pooh-poohed by those who whom have deemed to do so in the past, or those such as Douglas Browne/NacNaughten/Wynne Baxter have suggested.

That is why I applaud your work, because it has a slant that is interesting and also different. It asks questions. You may well be right! You may well be wrong. But it asks questions.

Those who are interested in Fleming, and Hutchinson, I also applaud. There are avenues we need to look down. Thoroughly. Other avenues also INCLUDE a Fenian link. It includes the CID. It includes DISINFORMATION and it includes the simple fact that TWO major operations happening at the same time in the same tiny area, involving an influx of SPECIALIST policemen... which MUST, in my logical, rational mind, have some connection with each other.

Like I said, differences of "theory" or opinion will occur, but I am trying to respect things that haven't been looked at, instead of going over and over again the same old things...that have got us nowhere.

with best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil,

You seem to have made your mind up that there's a strong Fenian link to the murders. Does this mean you're no longer open minded to more simpler explanations, such as the good ol' Polish Jew or American Quack? I'm not being combative, but such dogmatism is surely no different than those you claim are not open to new avenues of thought.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the reply,

Tom, there are some people that want this mystery to remain a mystery. It's big business. What those people don't seem to realise is that nothing would stop because the Whitechapel murderer was found, or the case solved.
Others don't want it stopped because they feel PART of it and IT part of their lives. This subject is addictive to some....

The German link is very possible indeed, and I do not discount it. You yourself have seen the importance of the goings on in Berner Street, something I warmly applaud. Whether that murder is a "one off" or connected to the others, it is still, as you know, being hotly debated. All I do know is that whoever the murderer(s) was/were, I wecolme more investigation OUTSIDE the normal, everyday thinking that has dogged this case for years.
The "killing of a bunch of whores" is, for a group of Fenians or anarchists, in itself, pointless. So there MUST be a reason. I suspect the reason to be linked to something we are yet to know.

And that comment about Stephen White is a very good one. As it also is with Halse at Mitre Square/Goulston Street..as it is with the policemen around Bucks Row, as it is with a "watcher" ..Hutchinson, in Dorset Street.

That is why I think the answer lies in the CID files. I have a sneaky suspicion, without foundation apart from logic, that the EARLY purloining of the files were papers relating to things that may have something to do with the above, and Fenians. I reckon the file on the Whitechapel murders amongst the CID files is actually made up of papers from the original file.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

There are those who actually don't want the answer found, for varying reasons...some personal, some, even of a fashion akin to "spoiling the story".

Yes, but who? I see this written all the time, but names are never named. I want to know WHO specifically doesn't want the answer found?

There is no doubt in my mind at this present moment in time, that the manoveuring into Whitechapel of a considerable police force, around the International Working Mans Club, which did not just consist of the Jewish man and woman, but anarchists and troublemakers from different clans and groups and nationalities, is a central point that has something to do with these killings. To imagine that two different immensely important police operations are happening quite separate from each other, within such a small area, is, in my honest opinion, naive.

On the night of the murder, a good many of those attending the club were German, no doubt some of them members of the Autonomie Club, the sister club to the Berner Street group. These guys were quite notorious. If you're going to find a link, it's probably here. However, the Fenians and the anarchists had completely different political agendas. If they were going to work together to bring down the establishment, do you really think it would be to kill a bunch of whores, and do you think the Berner Street club would have agreed to play host to one such murder?

I do find it curious that Police Sergeant Stephen White allegedly made his inquiries in Berner Street while in plain clothes. Was he also in plain clothes the night of the murder?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Limehouse,

Thank you for your kind and generous comments.

Coroner Wynne Baxter apparently contacted the Home Office with his suspicions of Fenian involvement, to be informed that he wasn't the only one that had made the same observation.
That little piece of information was published in a newspaper article straight after his death. Now that is a CORONER we are talking about. He has to have some pretty good info to come out with that statement I would think.

As I see it, ANY mention, publically, of Fenian involvement was kept very quiet for a reason. The total loss of control the news would produce.

It must also be remembered that the SD or CID files on the case are STILL closed, after 122 years. There is apparently a file in that lot entitled "The Whitechapel Murders".

Now I don't know about you, but that raises one alarmingly serious question.

If the Whitechapel Murderers have their OWN file amongst the SD Files, that can ONLY mean that something within them was considered a national threat. Otherwise they would NOT be in there at all. It is highly unlkely that any of the named suspects were considered a threat to the Monarchy and the Crown.
So something MUST, by sheer definition, be connected to something undercover. Those files are kept in perpituity. There is NO good reason why they should STILL be kept secret, for if the "threat" from 1888 is STILL a possibility, then it must have been much much worse than we can imagine.

Alternatively, the answer given to the files being kept under lock and key are the names in the files and the effect on those people's families then and now.
I'm sorry, but it is totally naive to believe that any name in those files would have any damaging effect on todays relatives, 4 or 5 generations down the line... UNLESS...
the VICTIMS themselves were part of or used in undercover operations.

THEN IT WOULD HAVE TO BE KEPT QUIET...because..

If THAT were the case, Robert Anderson, Henry Matthews, Charles Warren, Prime Minister Salisbury and many others could be deemed to be complicit in some serious acts of crime.
All to keep the Fenian involvement quiet.

And if THAT was the case...well, I leave you to ponder the implications AT THE TIME of this getting out.

There is a thread adjacent to this called Kosminski..why the big secret?..

I ask this. The CID/SD Files...why the big secret?

122 years on.

That is enough to provoke thought...isn't it?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Sox,

Thank you for your reply,

As you know the myriad of books every year etc...

I am not writing a book so therefore no fear there. I dont have to write a book about it. Even though I already have on something far far away from Jack the Ripper!

I, unlike some, am not in this for any personal gain.

Fenians on the horizon..

If you indeed know of the "sequence", you would know that (and I say this to you politely) the Fenian idea IS NOT a new one.

Wynne Baxter apparently contacted the Home Office it at the time (revealed in 1921 (newspaper article)
MacNaughten apparently said it at the time (revealed in 1956- Douglas Browne)
'The Mammoth Book of JTR" 1999, M.Warren, wrote a whole chapter on the idea
etc etc etc

My point being that this is NOT a new cranky idea. Its an old line of investigation that hasn't been fully investigated.

And the mere fact that a file in the SD/CID files entitled "The Whitechapel murders" INDICATES, because of WHERE it is, that there exists something relating to national threat suspicions.
Files in the CID are there because of exactly that. And the Fenians WERE regarded as a National threat.

You seem to want to compare this to something akin to "senasationalistic".. which it isnt. It is just different, perhaps touchy, because of national feeling.
But as I have said. The Fenian throw is now almost extinct, politicallly. The successor, the IRA, has disbanded. Officially.

It was nice to see "good luck with your research".. but I will make you aware that I am NOT the only one doing research into this area. And I will politely point out my own personal views again..

I dont care WHAT the answer is. Or WHO is right.
At least I am willing to consider something new...
Even if Jack the Ripper was an unidentified policeman in the CID

Wouldn't that ruin the "traditions of the department"...


Some policemen are egoistic ...(now and again)
Some are always right... (now and again)
And some hate to be told when they are wrong..by people that arent policemen. (yes, that happens too).. ESPECIALLY by politicians, historians and researchers.

I happen to believe the police should be an example of the law. Not the people's brow beaters. And in Robert Anderson, imho, a more brow beating example of an inflated ego flouting his position, never wrong, and showing that he thought himself ABOVE the law (yes, he did that during his career by his own admittance) you would be hard to find.

Fenianism was RIFE in 1888, and it was in Whitechapel. A tiny area of East London. And specialized anti-Fenian policemen were bought in from CID to deal with the Whitechapel murders...even from DUBLIN, by Anderson himself...that is a FACT. So the whole scenario is ALREADY combined and linked.

best wishes

Phil