Whether we like it or not

[Toofew]

Phil, if I am correctly understanding your posts, your theory is that the killer was someone with Fenian ties. Is that it in a nutshell or I have I totally missed the point?

Best of wishes,

Billy

[ianincleveland]

Im not a great expert on JTR by any means but what would Fenians have gained from the slaughter and ripping apart of a few penniless prostitutes especially as MJK from what we been told was Irish?(assuming for now she was murdered by JTR).theres no good publicity in these killings.

Id also hazard a guess if the government/police thought it was the work of Fenians theyd make sure that hit the paper headlines world wide as the murders of some innocent prostitutes would hardly gain much sympathy with anyone.

[Limehouse]

Well, actually, Polly was not her real name, Polly being a common moniker for those named Mary Anne.

[P.M. Boggs]

Hey Daniel!
Like, you really just missed it! Comes from hanging around with dopeheads (i.e. hippies). If you'd been a bit more careful, you would have recognized that it's P(olly), A(nnie), C(atherine), E(lizabeth), M(ary). That spells PACEM, as in "Pacem in Terris" (Peace on Earth). Now let's see who is going to pick up this ball and run with it - right down the rabbit hole (to mix a few metaphors).

[Radical Joe]

Of course, as with any such situation, those of us wishing to remain faithful to our own cause, especially those believing in one lone crazed killer, argue most vehemently against such a plausible idea.



Ego's may suffer. Theories believed in for many years may be burst apart. Disappointment will, no doubt be great. And, no matter how hard the evidence or proof, there will still be those that argue against it.

Some down right stubborn beyond belief and some refuse to bend one iota towards any other point of view. Some will even be horribly offensive and start a witch-hunt like attitude towards an individual or two with something he/she passionately believes in. Sadly, it happens, and it gets us nowhere.

There are others that are prepared to give way. Others that will listen and use time to think about something different. Some may even be swayed enough to become interested. Some may even change their views completely. That is a very grown up thing for die hard people to admit to. And it takes some doing! To be convinced is hard..believe me!

Nice sentiments - shame you couldn't extend the same courtesy to another (new) poster...

Daniel,

OK. I will try this too, and I will do this off the top of my head after 40 years of reading, writing, studying, trawling through book after book, paper after paper, document after document, library after library, having pleaded left right and centre with authority after authority, officious official after officious official, annoyed the blazes out of my friends who wanted me to go down the pub and see a bit more of life, lost countless hours of sleep researching, missed countless meals....ok I will do this too... ONCE.



P olly Nicholls
A nnie Chapman
E lizabeth Stride
C atharine Eddowes
E Lizabeth Fisher (Lizzie Fisher as MJK was ALSO known as)

Peace, man. Does this mean JTR was a Late Victorian Hippie?

All those years.. and I didn't see it. How could I have been so ignorant?

I am not taking the mick. Just an example of doing something I will never try again. At least I have done that too, now, and wasted another 5 minutes of my life. Oh well, could be worse. I could have been a Third Lanark supporter.

best wishes

Phil

PS Welcome Doris. Hope you enjoy the boards here. There are some good people on here mate!

Personally, I find Daniel's theory about as (un)convincing as yours, although at least Daniel hasn't resorted to condemning others as "stubborn beyond belief", "refusing to bend one iota towards any other point of view." Or, indeed, that "some will even be horribly offensive" in his OP, then popping over to someone else's thread and proving himself to be all that he railed against.

Furthermore, at least Daniel didn't resort to building his argument around 'secret files' that we don't even know exist, but surely must exist because they've 'been talked about'.

On the basis of your logic, I'm off to get me the Loch Ness Monster.

[Ally]

There are two things I have noted that have yet to be proven wrong. Those who are the first to sniff and throw their nose in the air about behaving with respect and courtesy are always the ones who lose it with the most hysterical and predictable regularity when their ideas are challenged. And of course they always claim that they believe in courtesy it's just that they were provoked so of course they are excused because they don't have to follow the courtesy they demand of others when they are provoked.

And also too, those demanding respect are usually the ones with some completely wingnut theory that they cannot support at all, and yet the minute someone comes up with an equally wingnut theory, say, pentagrams, you can bet you'll find them there pooh-poohing on the "lack of reason" in such a theory.

The more the usernames change, the more the people are always the same.

[Phil Carter]

Hello sox,

Thank you for your reply.
Very very rarely, do I become agitated enough to write without respect.
However you have managed to get me to that point.
Somehow, in some way, I really dont think you have READ what I have written. So I am going to have to spell it out..again.

Please tell me why, butchering harmless common prostitutes would further the cause of Irish Nationalism, tell me exactly how this was ever going to win over the support of the world in general.

FURTHERING THE CAUSE OF IRISH NATIONALISM AND BUTCHERING HARMLESS WOMEN IS NOT THE POINT!!!!!! That is your jump the gun interpretation of my words...AGAIN!

I have never SAID that. IF you bothered to read my posts, without jumping to inane conclusions, you would see that I have been STRENUOUS to point out that I have never mentioned that a FENIAN PLOT to kill these women existed at all!. What I have said, for the umpteenth time, though it seems I'll have to repeat it, is that the BACKGROUND, which I have well established, gives every indication of a Fenian LINK to the murders. I have asked, specifically,for others to seriously consider that the connections need thorough research...without immediately dismissing them.

YOU sox, have previously been the CHIEF accuser of anything I have written on the subject as being SENSATIONALISTIC, (which it isn't, if you bother to read post number 3) comparing my "theory" (I call it an observation) to Royal conspiracies and Walter Sickert theories. I haven't even mentioned those things. I have AGAIN pointed out that the BACKGROUND of the murders COULD have been used as a smokescreen for Anderson's CID to get on with Anti-Fenian operations. Pulling such comparisons of the conspiracies you have previously mentioned out of thin air is ridiculous.
(Sickert nor PAV were ever mentioned by any policeman nor official at any time during the investigations).

You also have previously (on another thread) taken umbrage at any hint that Robert Anderson's department can in any way be linked to doing wrong, questioned my knowledge of how the CID works, (without knowing anything about me) suggested that a good and valued friend of 45 years who worked in CID for most of his career is a liar, or that I misunderstood him, (neither of which is true) and on top of that, have the gall to now tell me that I haven't come up with a reason WHY the SD/CID files are so important. IF you had read ANY of my previous posting (No.3) it is entirely obvious why they are important. SO PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.....

THE CID and SD were all over the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper case, with CID detectives working left right and centre on it. DOH! As Homer Simpson would say... WHERE WOULD THE SD DETECTIVES' REPORTS AND OBSERVATIONS BE? IN THE SD FILES PERCHANCE? SD SUSPECTS? Reports on them ? Including Tumblety by the way, as has been previously mentioned. BY OTHER researchers. Get it now? THAT is why.

Such outward protection of anything so plainly obvious that could POSSIBLY, in any way show the CID up for being involved in any way in this case is alarmingly clear.

Seemingly without an inch of viable research of your own, yet critical of something you don't like that might just shatter the cosy little world of JTR as you know it. Well shame. It may well happen. What the blazes are you going to say if the "lone killer" turns out to be TWO killers, working together?
You cannot prove anything. Neither can anyone. That is why this case is unsolved. It should be noted, for the umpteenth time...again..that I AM NOT TRYING to PROVE anything.

The Irish people never even condoned the bombing of mainland targets, where hundreds of innocent people were killed, let alone the slaughter of helpless women by a knife wielding maniac. If the Fenians had been behind the Whitechapel murders then the British Police would not have hidden the fact, they would have made certain that it was splashed across the front pages of every newspaper in the country.

Where is all this nationalism coming from in speeches about CONDONEMENT? I havent mentioned anything about that, let alone attacked any country nor its population in any way. I would NEVER wish to be associated, to any hint of bias against ANY community, race, creed or religion. I find that intolerable, and a totally unacceptable way of living my life.

However, you may as well get used to the fact that IF the killer was a "lone sexual maniac"..he might have been Irish. They are not immune to such people amongst them. There isn't a nation (with the possible exception of Buddhist Tibet) that hasn't got them or had them.

As far as the "splashed across the front of the newspapers " comment you have written is concerned,,, you obviously know less than NOTHING about history, political climates or the running of Governments in the Late Victorian Period, let alone the effect on a pent up, simmering situation that was FEARED (by the ruling classes) to be near anarchy and revolution. (note Trafalgar Square, Nov 1887) Fenianism was very much at the forefront of this fear, because of the Home Rule question, seen as a breakaway from "the Empire" that Victorians held so reverently. The Parnell investigation just around the corner, early 1889, had Anderson's involvement with Le Caron highlighted. Same Anderson, In charge of the Ripper case from Sep 1888.

Normally I write and behave with total respect if I can. However your attitude towards me shows none, as you havent bothered to read the clear meaning of my posting. I suggest you read Late Victorian Political and Social History. I also suggest that both you and I refrain from commenting on each other's future postings, as we are so far apart that it is pointless, and it would be appreciated it if you refrained from replying to this posting of mine.
Enough sox. If you have nothing but criticism to give, without understanding easily understood English, and are just out to attack, do it elsewhere.

You really WON'T ever understand what a POSSIBILITY is unless you understand the background. Which clearly, in this case, you have no concept of.

Phil

[Sox]

Again I say. 122 years later. SD/CID files.. what's the big secret? THAT is where the documentation, by definition, must be Mike.

Hiya Phil, so you keep saying, but three pages later and you still have not come up with a reason as to why.

One hundred and twenty two years later, there is actually documentation to prove that what you are trying to say is quite wrong, the autopsy reports. With the benefit of those one hundred and twenty two years, & hindsight, we can say, with almost complete certainty, that those reports scream 'hello I am a sexual serial killer'.

Even Dr Bond, in 1888, knew this,even the police in 1888 knew this, and it is all there, in plain old English, for anyone to read. The evidence was there each time the killer struck, sexual serial murderer, refute that if you can. Please tell me why, butchering harmless common prostitutes would further the cause of Irish Nationalism, tell me exactly how this was ever going to win over the support of the world in general.

The Irish people never even condoned the bombing of mainland targets, where hundreds of innocent people were killed, let alone the slaughter of helpless women by a knife wielding maniac. If the Fenians had been behind the Whitechapel murders then the British Police would not have hidden the fact, they would have made certain that it was splashed across the front pages of every newspaper in the country.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your genuine meaning behind the question. And I will attempt to answer why this is more important than a thread about streams of flesh. (I happen to agree with you there by the way!)

With thanks to Tom Westcott, I quote him having written the following in the past....

I can guarantee there are many extant files under the names of various individuals that would contain notes and materials of much interest to us. The Tumblety file that's sure to exist in Special Branch, for instance.

Now, IF that file on Tumblety exists, we already know he has Irish connections. Is it possible to connect Tumblety to Fenianism? Littlechild's comments ARE important. He was high up in the Secret Department. The same Secret Department that houses files on the Fenian problems from the time.

There were senior men centrally involved in the investigations of the murders who suggested at various points in time that Jack the Ripper crimes were connected with Fenian activities and/or individuals.

It seems, for some reason, that Wynne Baxter's comment to the Home Office has been ignored or overlooked by researchers and historians since it was made known. As indeed has the Home Office reply, and Macnaghten's comment.
It has previously been suggested on these boards before that the Eddowes murder could be connected to her being one of Jenkinson's "girls", on the ground infiltrating Fenianism. I do not in any way say this is so.. but an intruiging thought. We know that women were used in undercover work.

Like Littlechild's comment on Tumblety to Sims, Wynne Baxter's comments on Fenianism to the Home Office ARE important. Douglas Browne's written comment about MacNaughten's view of a Fenian connection likewise.

The Parnell business that had been simmering under the political surface for a good while, was about to come to a head in 1889. Anderson had all sorts of things to answer with that, including the Le Caron situation. Remember, Anderson met Le Caron in Paris in 1888. The stopping of a man called Walsh, of the planned assasination of Balfour was the result in this meeting with Le Caron.
In his Secret Department capacity, it would be normal to present it so that nobody was meant to know why Anderson went abroad. The ill health thing could well have been a ruse. To confuse and counter confuse was a very normal thing for Anderson. His Secret Dept and their actions were all carried out very much on a need to know basis.

Was all this done to help to keep any further speculation at a minimum with the Parnell Commission on the horizon perhaps? Especially IF Wynne Baxter's observations were AMONGST the views that were being recieved at the Home Office. Henry Matthews would really have been worried if Wynne Baxter's comments had been made public at the time. Look at the reaction to the comment about American doctors looking to buy organs! What would the reaction of the masses have been had ANY comments about Fenianism and Jack the Ripper been printed by the newspapers for the masses to read?

It is my belief the theories by these top policemen... Anderson, MacNaughten et al, about Druitt, Polish Jew, etc etc were red herrings... and those red herrings are STILL being believed, 122 years later. Confuse and counter confuse. It has certainly worked! All said without one iota of proof.

Again I say. 122 years later. SD/CID files.. what's the big secret? THAT is where the documentation, by definition, must be Mike.

best wishes

Phil

[protohistorian]

amen...We are not racing, they are dead. What you can do, what you will do , what is to be? Lets see. Dave

[The Good Michael]

Over the last 4 months or so, there have been various threads both touching upon, and indeed pointing towards, the involvement of Fenians in the Whitechapel murders/Jack the Ripper murders.

Phil,

There have been various threads, yes, but they are not necessarily useful ones, though I have no room to speak about usefulness. My point is that threads are often started for no more reason than whimsy. Why should they all be treated with the same amount of respect and validity as others? When the idea of streamers of flesh hanging about in the Kelly photo was presented, it was quickly and vehemently quashed. The same can be said for many others. Why should an Anderson and Fenian involvement be take seriously as there is no documentation or any sort of secondary evidence for such a thing. I am seriously asking why and in no way denigrating the idea.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

Does your mother know you use her computer at night ?

edit : I don't remember any dialogue with you, sorry!

[Marlowe]

Hey DVV, I think the last time we spoke was more than 8 months ago or so. I don't remember saying anything to you since then, am I correct? Still traumatized from the whoppings I gave you, I guess? Grow up you little worm. Just like perrymason you offer little and should be ignored. You're another freak who needs attention or you get angry. Now get lost. Or, say something intelligent if that's possible.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Harry,

Thank you for your reply.
The POINT of this thread was, infact, made in post No.3. as DVV has pointed out. If that is read correctly, I clearly state that I don't care who finds the answer, or what the answer is..just that this particular line be given the same amount of research and fair room as all others.
The comments made by Wynne Baxter and MacNaughten, the involvement of Anderson with both his hats on at the same time, the location and political situation, the social conditions and the ambience of the people, the background of MANY of the policemen involved, and the obvious stalemate of the situation after 122 years having followed the same line, are all contributary factors to my posting, No.3.
We cannot, in my honest opinion, ignore these things.
Whether that leads to a revelation towards or against Fenian involvement, I feel that the subject needs to be seriously understood. It is the backdrop against which the murders were committed.

*edit*.. Anderson's CID may well have used this series of murders, whilst it was all going on, to do his other business in the area. Anti-Fenianism.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Hi Harry,

I often find myself in agreement with you, but not this time.
Phil tries to understand why the police opinions are so....so....so.....
Without preconceived ideas.

Amitiés,
David